Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
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Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
Dick Spiegel on Family, Faith, and Finding New Beginnings
What if your childhood memories were shaped by the rich cultural tapestry of a vibrant Polish community in Michigan? Join us as Dick Spiegel shares his remarkable journey from growing up in Hamtramck, surrounded by the warmth of family and Polish traditions, to navigating the formative years at Catholic schools. Dick's stories transport us to a world where sauerkraut and neck bones were more than just meals—they were the flavors of a community bound by shared values and traditions. His reflections on childhood show how a close-knit family and community can profoundly influence one's character.
As Dick transitions from his early days to a professional career, he opens up about his experiences in the United States Army at William Beaumont General Hospital. Here, he gained invaluable medical knowledge that would serve him well in his subsequent roles as a lab technician across Michigan hospitals. However, life had more challenges in store, pushing him to adapt and eventually shift careers to work in engine development at Chrysler. Dick's narrative highlights the importance of adaptability, mentorship, and familial support, all of which played crucial roles in his successful career transitions.
In his retirement years, Dick's life takes unexpected turns as he navigates corporate buyouts, discovers the world of consulting, and finds love again with his second wife, Ginger. From building a dream home to facing economic challenges, each experience reinforces his heartfelt belief in the power of love and honesty. As Dick and Ginger settle into retirement in Heartland, we are reminded of life's unpredictable nature and the enduring bonds of family and community. Tune in to hear Dick's poignant reflections on life's journey and the lessons learned along the way.
Today is Wednesday, october 16th 2024, and we're speaking with Dick Spiegel who served in the United States Army Right. All right. Well, good afternoon, dick. It's great to see you, thank you. And thank you for having us here in your home. We'll start out real simple actually. When and where were you born?
Speaker 2:I was born in Highland Park, michigan, february the 27th 1939.
Speaker 1:Okay, and now did you grow up there?
Speaker 2:I grew up in Hamtramck, a Polish settlement which is now probably more Arab or whatever. Yeah, but that was the largest Polish community in the United States.
Speaker 1:And when did you move to Hamtramck?
Speaker 2:community in the United States. And when did you move to Hamtramck? My mother and father lived there, you know, and they rented a house with my grandfather and grandmother and I stayed there until I went into the service and, after getting married, moving back, never went back to Hamtramck.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. Well, let's talk a little bit about your childhood. What was it like to grow up in Hamtramck as a kid?
Speaker 2:It was great. I mean, the Polish people are very proud individuals, the homes are all well-kept, you know close-knit organizations and things like that. In Hamtramck, where we lived, we could walk from my home well, actually my parents' home to Joseph Kampo, which was a major, major street. You had everything there that you might want. Okay.
Speaker 1:Did you have brothers and sisters?
Speaker 2:I have one sister.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And that was it.
Speaker 1:All right. Is she older or younger?
Speaker 2:She's younger.
Speaker 1:Okay, so she was the baby of the family then. Yeah, okay, and you know, growing up. So how far apart in age were you, pardon? How far apart in age were you, pardon? How far apart in age were you? How much older were you than?
Speaker 2:your sister. I'm 86. She was born in 1941, so A couple years, a couple years.
Speaker 1:Okay, what are some things you remember about her as a child Any like favorite memories, any like?
Speaker 2:favorite memories. Sorry to say, she was always a little smarter than when I was in high school. We were both raised in a Catholic home, went to a Catholic high school and, yeah, she made the honor roll, whereas I didn't. Okay, yeah it was great.
Speaker 1:And what did your parents do?
Speaker 2:My dad started off as an auto worker at Chevy Gear and Axle. After several strikes and things like that, worked in a small jobbing shop. After several strikes and things like that, worked in a small jobbing shop. From there his sister got him a job or an appointment for a job with the school system in Hamtramck. Okay, and he retired as a bus driver.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Right. Okay, my mother was a stay-at-home mom, but she would occasionally clean. There was a small I think it was a jobbing shop or whatever just to supplement the income but, like that. She was a great mom. So what would be like a favorite memory of your mother. Love to cook, love to cook, love to cook. She wasn't too much into the gardening and things like that, but I mean she could cook. She did not needlepoint, I think it's called cross-padding or something like crosses and things like that, and that was about it.
Speaker 2:We never had anything that we would want. Mom always made sure that we had things that was in Like. I say my father worked as a bus driver. I remember him and I mean playing ball in the alley, playing catch, you know, and things like that. He'd take me fishing on Belial out to Algonac, things like that, and again, you know, it was memories that I still have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good memories too. It sounds like that's good. Well, what about school? What was school like for you?
Speaker 2:I went to a Catholic grade school, queen of Apostles at Hamtramck. From there I went to St Florian's, which is no longer in Hamtramck, but that was a Catholic high school which would now be college prep courses, and graduated not with I couldn't say with honors, I graduated, you know, with. I wasn't a valedictorian or anything like that, but you know.
Speaker 1:Respectable grades anyway, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I maintained my grades, you know, and all that, I couldn't compete with my sister, but I mean, you know, that was it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you play any sports at all in school?
Speaker 2:We played intramural basketball. My mom didn't want me to play football. She was always afraid that I'd get hurt, and I respected my mom's wishes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how did you like basketball? Were you good at it?
Speaker 2:You know, it was a lot of fun. You know, we'd go out and we could play four corners down the street. Then, you know, the gym was open a couple days a week. We'd play after school A lot of basketball, some baseball, but that was about it.
Speaker 1:Okay, I do have to ask because it's Hamtramck and I hear this all the time. The food there must have been amazing.
Speaker 2:Oh, to this day, I mean, I can't find a Polish restaurant that they had over there. There was one that was called Under the Eagle, there was another one called Zosha's, there was, oh, the infamous Nicholas and the one that we would call the co-operative Russian restaurant, and the reason for that is that was the only place that you could the Russian dissents could go on and get to Pravda magazine.
Speaker 1:Okay, so if you, what's one of the Polish foods that you like? What's your favorite?
Speaker 2:Or do you have a?
Speaker 1:favorite.
Speaker 2:Not a favorite. I mean, mom was always, you know, she'd put it on a plate and the whole thing like that. I mean I love my sauerkraut and neck bones. In fact I'm going to be making it for Brian Sauerkraut, smoked sausage and boiled potatoes.
Speaker 1:Oh, that just sounds amazing. And it's simple food. Yes, I mean, it's not complicated Polish food was always simple, you know.
Speaker 2:You had your pork chops, you had chicken chicken soup. Another delicacy was pickled pig's feet. Okay, I didn't realize that was Polish. Oh yeah, well, polish, german or whatever. I mean we all had it Right. And then the other one just thinking. I know my lovely wife doesn't like it that much, but the Polish people had a version of the bost Ours was served. That was with beets and it was served warm over potatoes.
Speaker 1:Really yeah. Yeah, because it's normally cold right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Russian is cold Really, yeah, yeah, because it's normally cold, right? Yeah, russian is cold.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yep, well, and I think, with beets, either you like beets or you don't like beets.
Speaker 2:I love beets.
Speaker 1:I'll eat beets all day long. My wife says they taste like dirt. So what are you going to do? Right, yeah, so you get through high school. And then did you join the service right out of high school.
Speaker 2:No, I went out. I actually wanted to start off as a pharmacist was accepted at Detroit Institute of Technology College of Pharmacy in my junior year. Well then, with the enrollment being somewhat down, Wayne State took them over. Well, Wayne State, they had too many. I was on a waiting list for three years and no. So the next thing was is that I was reading an article someplace about the medical field. So I went out and I found a small college, pursued a degree in medical technology, Okay, and then from there, even going into the service, I was in the medical corps.
Speaker 1:So what made you join the service?
Speaker 2:Well, my number was coming up At that time. We had to draft, you know, and I knew I called his board and he says well, we can't guarantee this, we can't guarantee that. I was already a second semester junior. And I says well, would I get a deferment? He says, well, you got to take some more courses. Well, can't take it. You know courses. So I enlisted and that was it.
Speaker 1:Spent three years in El Paso, okay, and now, where did you go to basic training?
Speaker 2:Went to basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky.
Speaker 1:All right, what was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, Well, you know I was, let's see, I would have been in my middle 20s, so I would say I was a little bit more mature than some of the younger kids, so I didn't have it that hard. I knew that they're playing mind games with you. You know, until now I wouldn't knock what I got from basic training and anything else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of lessons learned there, right. A lot of lessons, a lot of lessons you know and everything else. Is there anything from basic training that sticks out in your mind that you learned while you were there?
Speaker 2:The infiltration course Okay. Let's talk about that. You know infiltration you were in. You had to go through the dry run. You went through a wet run in daylight and it was a little scary because you know they warned you you don't get up or anything like that. And then the wet run at night going through and seeing the tracer bullets go over your head, that was a little scary.
Speaker 1:So the infiltration training is that where you're crawling you?
Speaker 2:crawled on your belly. Sometimes you'd have to get on your back and get underneath the wire. That was the scariest part. I mean some of the night problems. There was a fellow by the name of Pete Smirinski from Chicago. Him and I were always the point men and he always warned you at the night problems don't trip the trip wire because the flare would go off. Pete and I were getting, we were about halfway through the project and the dummy tracer bullets came in. We got scared, we tripped the wire. He hit one side of the post, banged his ribs up pretty good, and so did I, but like that, you know. Hey, you learn by your mistakes.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and the whole time they're firing these tracer rounds over top of you, right, oh yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh yeah. You know pitch dark and all you're seeing is them. Bullets go over your head, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:Sounds pretty realistic though.
Speaker 2:Oh, it is, it is.
Speaker 1:So you graduate basic training, and then what kind of training you go to From?
Speaker 2:basic training at Fort Knox. I went into medical training at Fort Sam Houston. I took up anybody with the MOS of a 931, which was a lab you had to go through combat basic training medic. So I took, let's see, four. I had four weeks of that of the eight weeks going into lab school over there, graduating, had OJT on-job training at Fort Belfort in Virginia and at that time I already had my certification and boards as a medical technologist. Well, and working in a hospital. Up to that point they wanted me to stay. Well, the Army knows better than anything. Request denied, I wound up going to El Paso, texas. Looked on the map and where in the hell is El Paso? Well, major Graham went out and he says it's right here, son. He says you're on the border, on the Mexican border. So that's where I wound up for two and a half. Son, he says you're on the border, on the Mexican border. So that's where.
Speaker 2:I wound up for two and a half years.
Speaker 1:Now, did you work at the medical clinic there or the hospital there? What did?
Speaker 2:you do there. I worked at you worked in the clinic William Beaumont General Hospital in El Paso.
Speaker 1:Okay, and anything exciting happen in El Paso for you.
Speaker 2:Anything exciting happen in El Paso for you. You know again, I was privileged enough to serve with all of us that were in the lab, with a few well, there was two sergeants that were. Everybody else had at least two and a half years of college, so you didn't have pardon the expression the young, immature kids coming up.
Speaker 1:Right. These are all people who knew what they wanted to do.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you learn a lot working in that clinic?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean I assisted at probably, oh maybe, 125 autopsies performed, one by myself with a doctor assisting me, which I thought was great, and those were some, again fond memories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, must have felt good to be trusted enough to do that autopsy by yourself.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, he was there and sat down in a chair. He says okay, dick. He says you and I have done so many, it's your turn. And we followed the polar call and it was. You know, I learned my anatomy right there. You know, it wasn't book learning.
Speaker 1:It was actual. Right. Sometimes that's the best way to learn something. That's right yeah, so you did that.
Speaker 2:And then it was time to leave the military. Then my discharge came up. Okay, Came back and I worked for a small hospital here I can't remember which one.
Speaker 1:So you came back to Michigan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, got married the first time, okay, and came back and, like I say, worked in oh, it was Eastside General Hospital, that's what it was. I worked there until they closed that hospital. From there, I believe I worked at Sinai. Then I went into the service, came home, went to work for St Joseph Mercy Hospital on the Boulevard.
Speaker 1:So you were still a lab technician this whole time?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it was, you know, with that degree it was a biochemical degree anyways and then it was Garden City Hospital, where I was in charge of the blood bank, worked at the VA hospital in Allen Park for a short period of time. My father-in-law from my first marriage went out and there was a thing there that happened. It was Christmas Day, I believe that I was on call. Well, my mom and dad got there to celebrate Christmas with us and the phone rang. Okay, I'm on my way. That was at 2.30 in the afternoon. I stayed there till 1.30 in the morning. The first call Got home, my lovely wife had dinner. The phone rang. I went back in again. Well, this went on all night.
Speaker 1:Was there something going on that caused this?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, when you're in the hospital something goes wrong. You got patients going, you know.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:And finally, I think I left the hospital last time it was maybe 6.30 in the morning and I told the receptionist, because at that time you signed out with the operator and I got home and I'm pulling in the driveway and the wife goes out. She says the hospital's on the phone. And I said, sergeant, what she says? The hospital's on the phone and I says, sir, well, she says we need you. I says you know I got a half hour drive time. I says and that I says and Walt comes in at 7. I says so it's senseless. She says okay. I says okay.
Speaker 2:The following day when I went back in, I had to sign in to the chief pathologist's office and the book was there. And he says no. I says what do you mean? No, he says you refused the call. I says wait a minute. I says would you be so kind as to go with me to the operator? She was just getting off and she says yeah. She says you can see he's been here. Well, that took him to get it resolved about two months, two and a half months, to get my pay. They just stopped it. Father-in-law went out. He says well, are you through with your white coat? And I says yeah. He says I'll see if I can get you into Chrysler's. Well, he got me into Chrysler's. I worked in a lab. From the lab, that was the time that they were cutting back and everything else. He says, well, you're going to be laid off.
Speaker 1:So would this have been like the 70s then?
Speaker 2:That was before the 70s.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's like the 60s.
Speaker 2:Probably in the early or late 50s, early 60s. Okay, so he got me into Chrysler's. Unknown at that time was that his big boss is when I had owed my father-in-law big time, mm-hmm, so that was my guardian angel. So from the working in the lab I got dear truth saying that I was going to be laid off because I was a young low man on a totem pole. They got me for an interview at Chrysler's in Highland Park and he says well, okay, you can come in and work in engineering. Well, like my father would say. He says they made me an engineer. He says I can't even spell it.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you just got to do what you got to do yeah.
Speaker 2:I worked in engine development and he went out and said no, no, it was that. And I says I got to do something so that stayed with Chrysler from the lab. Then I went into engine development, engine development, then into supplier quality or development. At that time, you know, young man, he says okay, you got a chemical background, we can trust you with something.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Well, it started off that I had maybe 12, 14 suppliers, a lot known to me. The 12 that they gave me were the ones that the worst ones that they were going to get rid of. Oh, he says, okay, you go out and you see what you can do. Well, I took those 12, going from the rock bottom to some of the premium suppliers, so they went out. This is okay. They kept on. So I got to be the rubber expert tires, tires, everything else Took them and at that time they had Chrysler. I don't know how it is now, but we would have a quality award. Well, I'm not bragging or tapping myself on the back.
Speaker 2:I had the most suppliers, with the Pentastar, of course, so that kept on going, going you know, but they would never give me a promotion to a nine for a lease vehicle for some apparent reason, I don't know. I think that I didn't really have an engineering degree. I had a biochemical degree. So I retired, I took a retirement and then I went out and I, like I say, consulted and I enjoyed that. I mean going back to Germany. I was based here in Detroit, germany, while I was at Chrysler's under supplier development is when I had a chance to go to South America, to Mexico.
Speaker 1:Wow, you know so it is Got to see a lot.
Speaker 2:I seen an awful lot that I didn't see when I was in the service.
Speaker 1:Right, you got out of the service. Then you saw the world, yeah, yeah. So with your first, wife did. You saw, the world, yeah, yeah. So with your first wife, did you have children?
Speaker 2:I had four boys, four boys, and sorry to say I only talked to well one religiously close by the second one. He moved up into the UP. The other two says we don't want anything to do with you, dad. After the divorce it was a bitter divorce. My first wife just bent their heads. Till this day I only see two of them. The other two. They didn't want nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
Speaker 2:That's you know, but maybe before I take my last breath I'll see you. But like that, uh-uh.
Speaker 1:Well, is it all right if we talk a little bit about them? What do they do?
Speaker 2:Okay, my oldest son worked in fact I got him that job. He was with one of my suppliers. From there he worked it all the way up to working with I don't know if it was ITW or TRW. He's divorced now that I was told that the second one is, let's see, richard David Smith. The second son is the one that I'm close to. He lives in Trenton. The third son is the one that's up in the UP. Him and I made peace a long time ago and then, when he got married at a late age, I found a lady that they just fell in love and they moved up into the UP.
Speaker 2:But the youngest one, who had the most severe form of clubfoot ever recorded in medical history, does not want to even hear my name. He says I don't want to see you, I don't want to hear from you. I don't want to see you. I don't want to hear from you. I don't want to see you on the face of the earth. And that was, oh, let's say, 30 years ago, okay do you know what he's doing today?
Speaker 1:do you know anything about him?
Speaker 2:the youngest one that doesn't want anything to do with me is a parole officer up in Benton Harbor or St Joe's Steve. The one that's up in the UP is a cook and he's doing real good and he's doing real good. Number two, David, is working, for he was with a Ford Motor Company as an engineer and now I think he's working for Rausch, but that's it. And then my oldest son is a when, I think I'm thinking right, he is on the board of directors. He might be part owner now of a scrap metal shop, so he travels all over buying scrap metal.
Speaker 1:I don't normally ask this, but I think this is an opportunity, so I'm going to ask If your sons ever listen to this or watch the video. Is there anything you'd like to say to them? Is there anything you'd like for them to hear from you?
Speaker 2:I love them all. Okay, it's hard for a father to you know you raise them.
Speaker 1:It is hard yeah, and you love them all. Yeah, okay, I won't dig too deep in there. I know that that can be painful. I, my father and I, had some troubles too and we've we've made our peace. But, uh, thank you for being willing to share that and hopefully they hear this message to them. So, yeah, all right, so you?
Speaker 2:how many years did you work at Chrysler, With the points and everything else? It was 20 years. Okay, so it was 20 years out. You know, whichever came first, Right. So it was 20 year out, whichever came first. And at that time they said it was a merger of equals. It was never a merger of equals. Shortly after Mr Eaton and his infamous knowledge, they started chipping away at us older timers.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And their thing being is well, okay, we're going to buy you out, okay, fine. Well, there was a fella that him and I were both in the same situation, where he got married the second time and he says no, he says I just got remarried. He says and my present wife has two children. One of them, the youngest one, just goes into high school. Let me have six more months, have six more months, and then I'll take it.
Speaker 2:It wasn't no more than two weeks later they walked up and at that time how you knew that you got the schnitzel was they would walk by and give you a Xerox box and tell you to clean out your desk. Well, here comes plant protection, and he gives them his box and that's it. And I can vividly remember, just before I retired, how many of these guys. They shut down the complex so that if you didn't have a working badge you didn't get in on a complex. Well, joe got the schnitzel.
Speaker 2:There was another fellow that he could have retired five years before. Oh, no, no, no, no. Well, come to find out afterwards, he was a landlord of eight income things. All his kids were separate, you know, taken care of. But no, he wasn't about to and he fought it and while he finally I heard it from one of my cohorts is that, yeah, he forced them out on a technicality, wow. So I mean there's to me it's a little bad feeling at times with Chrysler. You know the way things he did, but I got out before on my own, whereas some of my buddies did it. They got the here's the box. Get out Right.
Speaker 1:The schnitzel, yeah, as you call it, and the first guys getting out the Xerox box was free.
Speaker 2:The second group of waves you give us a dollar for that box and you couldn't take that box up through the gate. Plant Protection kept it. They went through it and then they would call you in to come and pick it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, make sure you weren't taking anything that didn't belong to you.
Speaker 2:You couldn't even have a pencil that says Chrysler. Anything that had Chrysler and you know yourself Chrysler, ford, gm. You always had a pencil or a stapler or something. No, you couldn't have any of that.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you got out just in time, oh yeah, and then you went into consulting.
Speaker 2:I went into consulting and it was a challenge, because you know how it came out is we had a teleconference or a telephone and he says okay, can you be in Germany tomorrow? I says, hey, I don't know, I got my passport, but that's it. I says can I? So yeah, you know, but they spoiled me rotten. I flew Lutonza first class.
Speaker 1:The only way to travel, Dick.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, wow, so how long did you?
Speaker 2:consult for the only way to travel.
Speaker 1:Dick, yeah, right, yeah, wow, wow. So how long did you consult? For how long did you do that?
Speaker 2:Probably five or six years you know, and after that what happened is that the company I was consulting with had a big contract with Chrysler, so that's where it was. And then when that contract sort of fell through, that's when they went on. He says, no, you can handle Caterpillar, which was a big account. So I went back and forth. Then they went on. He says, hey, we're cutting back. And I says, well, that's good, I enjoyed the five years I had with you people and everything else.
Speaker 2:And if I had a chance to do it again you're damn right, I would.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a great experience, yeah, yeah. So then, when you left there, then you were retired, retired. I retired completely. Okay, all right. And at what point did you meet Ginger?
Speaker 2:Ginger and I met on a blind date. The fellow that introduced us was with Siemens and he was dating this one girl. And he says well, he says we have tickets to go and see the Nutcracker at Fox Up to the week before, or actually less than that, three days before. I almost called it off.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Well, unknown to me at that time, ginger went out. Her nephew was graduating and she was supposed to fly out and we hit it off from there and we just hey that to me. Sorry to say, yes, I love my first wife, but Ginger was the best thing that ever came along and I only wish that I would have met her before I met my first wife which is sorry to say if my kids hear it hey, I loved your mother, but she just called it quits.
Speaker 1:Sometimes things just don't work right. Yeah yeah, that's understandable, yep. And so in your retirement and in your time with Ginger, you lived locally here in Michigan.
Speaker 2:Then yeah, we lived in. We got married, lived in Royal Oak. From Royal Oak we went out and bought a house in White Lake and at that time everything was going along good. Sorry to say, I don't care for Obama, he can walk in this door right now and out he goes. We lost our house that we built. That was our dream. So then we moved from White Lake to a condo in Oscoda where we were for what? 12? Ginger would know for sure, but let's say 12 years. And then after her, well, she had more of a medical problem than what I did. Like I say, it was just a little bit too far for the kids to drive that three hours.
Speaker 1:Right, so then now you're here in Heartland.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, enjoying it.
Speaker 1:Enjoying it. You got it, you worked hard your whole life. You should enjoy it right.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, dick, it's been great talking with you and as we wrap things up, our conversation up today, I always ask people this question, and that is you know, years from now, when someone listens to your story, what message would you like for them to take from?
Speaker 2:this conversation today. Love one another and be honest. Don't lie, don't try to change the facts. Interpret, maybe that's. My only downfall is I interpret the gray area. I cannot stand lying and anybody that lies. I just don't want anything to do with them. No-transcript.