Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
Veterans Archives is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information. www.veteransarchives.org
Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
Brad Budzynski's Journey: From Bootcamp to Baghdad and Back
What does true character look like? For Brad Budzynski, a former US Marine Corps infantryman who served during the initial invasion of Iraq, the answer came through the crucible of combat. His journey from small-town Michigan to the frontlines reveals how military service strips away pretense and exposes who we really are under pressure.
Brad's candid conversation takes us through his transformation from a teenager in Hazlitt to a Marine squad leader responsible for 12 men in combat. His description of Marine Corps training—from the "melting pot" of boot camp to advanced combat preparation—illuminates how the military builds both individual resilience and unbreakable team cohesion.
The raw reality of warfare comes alive through Brad's firsthand account of the Iraq invasion. Living in amphibious assault vehicles for weeks without showers, wearing stifling chemical protection gear in 120-degree heat, and navigating the chaos of firefights—particularly the intense battle at the Bridge at Taramiya—Brad paints a picture far removed from Hollywood portrayals. His observations about who steps up when bullets fly challenge conventional expectations about leadership and courage.
Perhaps most powerful is Brad's reflection on the enduring brotherhood forged through shared hardship. Two decades after service, these bonds remain stronger than ever, demonstrating how the military experience continues to shape veterans' lives long after they've hung up their uniforms. When health challenges following his father's passing forced Brad to reevaluate his post-military career in corrections, it was these relationships that helped anchor him.
Brad's story isn't just about war—it's about discovering what truly matters when everything else is stripped away. His parting wisdom to "put good into this world" and surround yourself with people who elevate you resonates as both a personal philosophy and the distilled essence of his military experience.
Good morning. Today is Sunday, March 9th. We're talking with Brad Budzinski, who served in the United States Marine Corps. So good morning, Brad, and welcome.
Speaker 2:Good morning. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Good to have you here. We're going to start out like we always do pretty simple. Okay, when and where were you born?
Speaker 2:I was born July 17th 1981 in Lansing Michigan.
Speaker 1:All right, I graduated high school in 1983.
Speaker 2:Did you? You guys make me feel old every time I do one of these, I get it. I know. I know the feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like when you see, you know if you're 21 on this date, you can drink, and it's like the date you graduated high school or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I experienced that all the time when I worked in the prison. I'd look at IDs and just be like, oh man, you're 20 years old. Yeah, you're a baby. You're a baby and your life's ruined yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So did you grow up in Lansing, then Well, hazlitt, hazlitt okay.
Speaker 2:Born at St Lawrence Hospital, grew up in Hazlitt, lived throughout mid-Michigan.
Speaker 1:My whole life minus the military.
Speaker 2:Okay, so tell me what was it like growing up, brad, in Hazlitt, smaller town, one sister Two years younger, parents Married happily. And yeah, my mom uh at a few different um jobs and uh, you know she works in um for the township local township now and my dad was a taxidermist and self-employed and, uh, landscaping he passed a couple years ago. Um, so, yeah, uh, I worked with my dad a lot because through the landscaping business I wasn't really attracted to the taxidermy um, I supported him and went to different shows and he was accomplished, uh, renowned, you know, one state, national and world taxidermy competitions and did seminars and all that. Um, it just wasn't my cup of tea but I did help them with landscaping. So I grew up doing that mowing lawns, plowing snow.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I played. I tried some different sports. Wasn't really great at anything in particular, but I enjoyed it and I enjoyed physical fitness and I did some martial arts. Um, I actually practiced with the wrestling team my senior year just to get in shape for boot camp. Uh, so, uh, I worked. I bought my own first truck when I was in high school. My parents co-signed for a loan. Uh, I met my was in high school. My parents co-signed for a loan.
Speaker 1:I met my wife in high school and we've been married since, since 2002. Oh, so you're like this is like the American dream.
Speaker 2:Like when you read a book or watch a movie. This is what it's supposed to be like. I don't know about that. No one's life is perfect, right. But you know what? I'm very thankful for the life I have and have had, and I think military service is really good at making you reflect on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah well let's talk about that a little bit one is that, um, I get the sense like my dad worked in the factory but the guy worked seven days a week, 12 hours a day and I got that sort of work ethic from my dad. My kids have the same damn work ethic and sometimes they work so hard they make themselves sick, but it was just one of those things that was kind of handed down. So in the military hard work wasn't really you know, it wasn't that scary to me because I'd done it.
Speaker 1:And so it sounds like it's very similar for you. So you go through, go through school, uh, you, uh, you graduate. So what happens after graduation?
Speaker 2:So I signed up for, uh, the delayed entry program for the Marine Corps. Uh, my junior year I knew what I wanted to do. I, I think I knew what I wanted to do pretty young. I didn't know for sure if it would be a air force, being a pilot, Um, but as I got closer to that date and graduation, the drum beat continued and I knew I wanted to serve in a combat role on the ground. Um, so I just went infantry and I know it's not, you know, the most attractive job to a lot of people, but it's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be on the ground and serve my country.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, I was a recruiter. I'm going to ask this question anyway. But as a recruiter I remember anytime someone came into my office if they wanted to be in the marine corps. There was no changing that. That like, a marine wants to be a marine, no matter what they get stuck in their head, yeah yeah, was that? Was that kind of you like I'm gonna be a marine, I'm not, you know I think after, like I said, after considering some different branches and looking at them.
Speaker 2:uh yeah, it just spoke to me. I felt like it was like a gravitational pull. I was destined to do that, I mean, simply put you know, for a lot of reasons Uniforms are pretty nice too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those guys look damn good in their uniforms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you can't deny all those commercials growing up.
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker 2:But that's not what sold me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just a bonus. Right, it's a bonus. Yeah, absolutely so. How long were you in delayed entry? For a year? Okay, that's a long time it was.
Speaker 2:So I did the whole once a week. Every thursday I think it was, we'd get together, have a two hour, I think it was. You know, play a pickup game of some sport, go for for a moto run, go play paintball, learn rank structure, marching practice, push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, history, and I think it gave me a definite advantage. So I'm glad I did that. I'd highly recommend it to any person thinking about the military because it gives you that little leg up. You're not going to know everything, but if you have a little grasp on the history and the, you know the rank structure when you're getting yelled at and tortured. Sometimes you can get out of that a little quicker if you know the answer right, right.
Speaker 2:And you're not the guy that steps off the bus with like a deer in the headlights either, because you kind of know what to expect you kind of know what to expect, yeah, uh, so, yeah, and it was fun and it helped, you know, motivate you to stay in shape and and you're getting to know some guys that are and girls that are in the same scenario, uh, so it's kind of that cohesiveness, that brother, sisterhood already. Um, yeah, so I did that and I didn't realize till I was in that that one year of delayed entry would count towards one less year of my total enlistment. So I did my four years active duty and instead of serving four years inactive, I only had to do three. So there's definitely a benefit before going in and post-service.
Speaker 1:Yep, Absolutely. Now the downside for the recruiter is sometimes people don't go, but clearly that was not you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I. I well, sometimes people sign up and go and then they still skip bootcamp or go AWOL.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's true, that's true, you know it's funny you say that. So, uh, I took my bootcamp at uh in San Diego back when the Navy still had boot camp out there.
Speaker 2:I was in San Diego as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so back in the day the Navy boot camp and the Marine Corps boot camp butted up against each other and there's this fence and you could see the Marines and they were working their butts off. But I remember one night this kid decides he's done so, he's going to go AWOL. So he jumps the fence thinking he's going AWOL, but he jumps the fence into marine corps boot camp. Oh, that's well, they kept him for like two weeks and when they brought him back he was more than happy to be in the navy. I'll just say that. So so you took you. You took your boot camp in san diego. Let's talk a little bit about that trip to san diego. And then what's it like? Like stepping off that bus into into Marine Corps bootcamp.
Speaker 2:Sure, it's all that you expect. Watch Jarhead, watch a full metal jacket. It's pretty similar. A lot of screaming. Yeah, you know it's. Even though it's United States, you get an element of culture shock. You know you're 17, 18, 19 years old, getting on a plane flying across country to a place I've never been, which you know it's still the U? S, but you know you're thrown into this melting pot with you know, in my case, in the Marine Corps, it's male only. Bootcamp they're separated and I was in a job that was male only, so I'll refer to just males pretty much when I talk about this.
Speaker 2:So, um, bootcamp, uh, you know, going across country and and all that journey it's. It's time to grow up. You know there's a lot, lot of reflection and I was good with that, but it was my journey and I embraced it. You meet people from all different backgrounds, religions, ethnicities, from the get-go. From the moment you get on that bus you're starting to look around. You don't know anybody.
Speaker 2:It can be a very isolating kind of lonely experience, but you're all to look around. You don't know anybody. It can be a very isolating kind of lonely experience, but you're all in that together and the more and more you're together, you become one cohesive unit. So it's a really neat process and I laugh at job interviews when they say you know, tell us how you work with other people and diversity, and I just laugh and I always just keep it short and simple and I go to that same response. With boot camp You're thrown into a melting pot with people from all over the country, sometimes the world, and then, next thing, you know you're one synchronized fighting machine. So that's in a nutshell, like how cool I think that whole process is and overall that's. You know, you come in all different haircuts, clothing styles and you leave marching together, all looking the same right, well, and I I like to say that the, the military, was diverse before.
Speaker 1:Diversity was cool absolutely right. They've been doing it for a long time, a lot longer than some other places, and I think they do it right in all honesty.
Speaker 2:They do and it's all for a reason. Quite honestly, as far as hazing, I think, my personal opinion within reason, and if it's applicable to a combat role or your job, I mean, let's just face it, we're training for a war and we're not training to bake a cake. So I mean especially combat-related roles. You know, I think we should kind of allow to a point and let the branches do what they do. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that there there's a, you know there's an. There's an old saying that you have rough people standing to do the things that you don't want to do, so that you can sleep comfortably in your bed, and that's. I love that quote yeah, I mean, the military is there to break things and kill people. Yes, not to deliver pizzas, and that's. That's an important distinction that we have to make, and you know absolutely being a combat veteran yourself, you know that that's how it works yeah, and is it pleasant?
Speaker 2:are the stories always nice to hear? Absolutely not. No, uh, you know, I don't even consider myself that much of a war veteran. Um, yeah, I, I was in combat, I got the, I got the ribbon.
Speaker 2:But even you know, I reflect back to other wars, right, world War II, vietnam. I mean these guys storming the beaches of Normandy and and I just laugh kind of at what I did yeah, several firefights and we had some guys die and get injured. But even my junior Marines that deployed, when I got out the deployment, I was on the first initial invasion in Iraq. It wasn't I mean, there's a lot of elements that sucked, but it wasn't all-out combat nonstop when my junior Marines that went back back and deployed a lot of guys died, a lot of guys got hurt and they even tell us it was totally different. So, with that being said, I'm just grateful for anybody that wears a uniform. Period, we all sign up, you know, sign the blank check and anything's possible, and you could be during peacetime, it could be during wartime. We can't control what conflict we're sent to, but I just have nothing but gratitude for the fellow vets and, uh, that's kind of where I stand on that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's so you, you go to bootcamp. I think that's a really great description of what happens there.
Speaker 2:After bootcamp, did you go to is it IRT that you go to after bootcamp. So the first phase of Marine bootcamp in San Diego is at MCRD, and that's kind of unique because MCRD Marine, uh Marine Corps Depot yeah, that's kind of unique because mcrd marine, uh recruit depot. Yeah uh, that's right next to the san diego airport and if you ever flew into san diego you'll see the boot camp, the rappel wall, the obstacle course, all that. You'll see marines getting haze right. So that's always a weird feeling, you know, right, when you're flying into boot camp you look out and you see these guys thinking, oh shit, that's me that's by design, yeah yeah, and another thing I realized all about this.
Speaker 2:Uh, by design you're right. By an airport you're hearing thunderous planes take off, loud noises constantly. You feel the barracks shake a lot. You know it's all concrete, so it's all part of the plan, right. And it's also kind of a messed up because you're watching these planes every night thinking, oh, I kind of like to be on that plane right now going home, you know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and that was actually my trick for my final PFT, my run. I never got to a perfect 18 minutes, but I tried so hard I got to 1810 for three miles, and I did that by training but also by watching these planes sinking. Oh, I could be on this plane right now, going somewhere tropical or going home, you know, and just kind of took my mind off the running. And so I kind of use it for a benefit sometimes too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. Yeah, it's not about perfection, it's about improvement.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So the first portion of boot camp was at MCRD and then they bus you up to Camp Pendleton Because MCRD is, you know, all barracks and garrison stuff marching. Then you go up to camp pendleton and that's your firearms field training, land nav, all that kind of stuff. Um, you finish out, you know most of boot camp there. Then you come back for a couple weeks or whatever and graduate and then from there, uh, I think I had leave right after boot camp and then for a week, and then I flew out back to Camp Pendleton to SOI School of Infantry. So boot camp was 12 weeks and then School of Infantry, I believe was seven, and then I got to the fleet Was at Camp Pendleton. Now, on my wish sheet with the recruiter you had three choices for duty stations and I I wanted to go cross country somewhere different. So I put california, california, hawaii and I got california, which I was happy.
Speaker 1:A lot of guys didn't get what they requested a lot of guys say california, california, hawai, and they end up in Alaska or something like that. Very fortunate.
Speaker 2:Or somewhere right by their hometown, or they're from California and they get stationed at. It's like, ah, you sign up in the military and you get stationed in your home state, right, right.
Speaker 1:Join the military and see your home state. So where were you at in California then?
Speaker 2:So Kent Mateo and uh camp pendleton, uh two five, second battalion, fifth marine regiment, first marine division. Two five is an infantry unit. It's actually the most decorated battalion in the marine corps.
Speaker 2:If it is still now, I'm pretty sure, but I'd have to look with there's been a lot of combat deployments lately, so, um, like it's talking about making it feel old. Uh, my buddy went back to base with his kids last year and there's brand new barracks. The whole camp's changed. There's these huge war monuments that weren't there when I was, which obviously a lot's happened, and to see Buddy's names on the fallen wall, ironically, I plan to take a family vacation soon and take them out there. I think that's another very important thing I'd like to do, just like this podcast, kind of documenting something for them. Uh, you know, to pass down right yeah to their kids and um, I think part of the trip.
Speaker 2:You can talk about it all you want with family and friends, but to take them there and kind of show them an experience a little bit, I think that's special, you know. It lets them taste a little more of the reality you lived. And it's just like I went to DC as a kid. I have a lot more respect for that place now. I'd love to go back. I think just like if we would have took our kids on that trip where I was stationed when they were real young, the appreciation wouldn't be there, right?
Speaker 1:So it's like, yeah, there's an age where they're going to get it and they're going to understand the importance of what happened. I think there's power in seeing it too. I know I went to, I visited the Arizona Memorial and we talked about it and you know I've read books about it. You've seen all the shows on tv yeah and you're heading out there and you get there.
Speaker 1:You're like oh cool, we're gonna see the arizona memorial. You get on that memorial. There's not a dry eye there. Like, yeah, the biggest stuff is guys they're all crying because, like, it's real it is, see it and sometimes you're overtaken by that right.
Speaker 2:You probably don't even expect that's gonna happen. No, and quite honestly, uh, I'm not very like sensitive person, but you know, with um, sometimes like just war movies, like uh taking chance I don't know if you've seen that with kevin bacon twice yeah what an incredible movie. Uh, yeah, I didn't even expect that. I started tearing up.
Speaker 1:I was like what the heck stop that yeah, well, because I mean, honestly, that's that situation, you know, people who have right, it's real, you feel it right because it's different.
Speaker 2:You've experienced an element of that right any, any, any war movie where you see the, the car pull up and the soldiers get out in uniform, it's yeah, you know, um. And those dog movies, yeah, I wasn't even a dog handler but I love dogs and you know, watching those it's like sometimes I'll I'll feel more of a tear coming on than people I know that have passed. Yeah, I feel kind of kind of fucked up.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean you had two things against you. One you were in the military and two you were in the infantry right I know my son and I at the holidays, uh, sometimes we'll say things and we're laughing and people are looking at us like we're crazy yeah, I, I get that all the time.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think people love me for that. Yeah, uh, but sometimes I know it's not, uh, it's inappropriate my timing or whatever, and I can pretty much kind of like try to control it. But sometimes you got to be you just yeah, and that's I don't know. I guess I'd appreciate that more if someone was totally transparent. Maybe a little not right about stuff sometimes or rude comments, but uh, at least you know what you're getting right you know there's no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's completely transparent. Transparent, yeah, you get what you get. So let's go back a little bit. You are um, you report to your first duty station, correct? And so you're the. You're the, you're the fng, the fresh new guy. Yes, what's that like?
Speaker 2:oh, more yelling, more, more games. But it's all for a reason right, and I get it, and you know it's all for a reason right and I get it, and you know, let's just be honest. So, like your, your military jobs that are, no matter what branch, in a combat role, they shouldn't have the luxurious barracks they shouldn't have, you know, all the time off and no field ops. You know that last for, uh, more than a week. You got to be used to all this stuff. So, yeah, it's definitely a fast tempo.
Speaker 2:So the way my unit worked was, I think it was basically a year and a half workup, a buildup of training, and then there's two years, staggering right. So in the infantry you have essentially half your unit is older Marines. They've already been in for a couple years with a deployment under them. And then the next wave comes in, the senior guys get out and that new seniority group is training up these younger Marines. So they become the squad leaders, the fire team leaders, and then your new wave of marines. They fall in under your all your rifle men, all your your saw gunners typically, and then they train the young guys and then the cycle continues. So typically we would deploy to okinawa j. That was my first deployment. And then on that deployment you get on ship and do some type of float. Well, I can back up a little bit if you'd like, but it's all. I'm sure it's kind of normal. You're painting the picture and then you start to go ahead.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, you're fine.
Speaker 2:But yeah. So back to like the workup and getting into the fleet. So back to like the workup and getting into the fleet. Yeah, there's a lot of running up the mountains in your gas mask at two in the morning, up a steep ass hill and packing in a shower. In the barracks you know a dozen marines with full mop suits on, boots, charcoal coats, pants and the hot showers are on and you're, you know, singing cadence, doing jumping jacks and all these other crazy exercises. They're just breaking you off, just pure games.
Speaker 2:But uh, man, I tell you, when we did deploy even hard training, it made it seem not as bad. And you hear that all the time. I would rather train much harder and then like to the point. We've had a couple marines die in training. You know, um, it sucks, but you have to train to that severity and I that's why I say I, a part of me, I think I there's a place for hazing to a point and you can define it how you want. But you can't train lightly and expect young men to go into combat.
Speaker 1:Right, you have to train as you fight. You do, yeah, and so. So I think that's the distinction between hazing and hard training, right? Hazing, for to me, is treating people poorly just to treat them poorly, cause that's how you got treated, where, whereas hard training may seem like hazing to people, but there's a reason behind it. I'm doing this, yes, because of this. If you watched band of brothers, yes, right, no one liked uh, captain sobel, he was a dick, but he, he did those things and those guys were ready for combat.
Speaker 2:because of the things that he did you're very right and I I couldn't agree more. It's some of it's improper usage of the term. Yeah, and I think we get that a lot with society, right, um, but yeah, so I would say people want to call it hazing, but it's just training hard and we should not reduce the intensity of training just because our quotas are lacking or this or that. I think it's very important to keep that tempo up. Standards are standards.
Speaker 2:Because, we're just doing those guys that are actually in a total disservice, yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree, so you're in Japan.
Speaker 2:This is. What year are you there then? So 2001 this is before 9-11.
Speaker 2:This is before 9-11. I think I was there for a couple months already and 9-11 hit. So I'm in the barracks. I believe I was sleeping at the time and someone woke me up, um, and said man, you know, come out and watch tv. So that's where I was. Now we were supposed to get on ship, I think, two weeks later, and do our float, which we would go to typically indonesia. Um, east to more is where my senior guys went, their last deployment and that's where we ended up going. But the captain came in that morning and said pack your shit, we're getting on ship early and we're probably going towards afghanistan. So we're all packing, getting ready, we get on ship early and once we're about to, you know, take off. We got word to head to indonesia. It's like okay, so we go there. And I didn't realize indonesia is like 90 muslim. Uh, so the thought was we still go down there. The area is unstable, they were doing humanitarian ops and that's what we did. But we wanted to be in the area because I thought, well, maybe there'll be some retaliation when we get into Afghanistan at various US embassies, colleges, we might have to do like noncombatant evacuation operations for American citizens. So we're on standby for that.
Speaker 2:We did go in with a combat load east to Moore and we ended up just doing you. You know, I think it was a few days of assisting, like the navy, cbs, building schools and churches and basically just providing security, right. Um, we ported in australia on the way there from okinawa and then when we came back we stopped at australia again. I think it was two or three days each way. Uh, I was a boot, a new guy, so I got blessed with guard duty, I think, on the way down, so I only got to. I think I had like a day, maybe less than that, to get off ship. But uh, yeah, it's all part of the fun experience, you know, being a new guy. Now, my junior marines and a combat deployment they had to burn shit and a 50 gallon drum with diesel fuel, right so I think I got the better deal yeah.
Speaker 1:So for anyone listening that's not been in the military, this is a thing I know. People hear about it. They don't believe it. But basically you put human waste shit in a big barrel, you pour diesel fuel on it, you light it and then you see, believe it. But basically you put human waste shit in a big barrel, you pour diesel fuel on it, you light it, and then you someone has to stand there and stir that yeah uh, and it's talk. I think that that's where the term shit detail came from, to be absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and uh, it's just kind of ironic. But you know, burn this shit, burn this trash, and of course you're gonna have health issues, right, but where do you put that? I mean, you have to do something. So as humans, society, we can only learn from things. And, oh, maybe that's not such a good idea, as all these particulates we're breathing in probably are harmful, right, right?
Speaker 1:And the thing is, I think, when you look back on those things, when you look back at World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam and now the Gulf War, we all did things at that time that we didn't know were going to be bad.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't like somebody sat in an office and was like, oh, let's hurt these people. It's oh, shoot, we hurt people and we didn't mean to, and yeah. So so you, uh, you, you're, you're coming back from okinawa, heading back to the states then, or you're heading back to okinawa okay, so as far as being on ship, yeah yeah, okay, so we okinawa, uh, australia east to more australia, back to okinawa.
Speaker 2:I think our total ship time was like a month and a half. Okay, maybe a month again. I was blessed to cross the equator, so I'm a shellback. Oh, and that was a surprise thing. I didn't. I think the senior marines talked about it. You know a little bit, but I didn't really. You know, hearing a little bit about the stories of the whole process, 24 hours of fun now I think that's hazing, yeah, so it's a lot of just it's.
Speaker 2:It's something to do I think to entertain. People take their minds off being in the cramped quarters. Uh, yeah, so it's this whole king, neptune, you know whatever. Crawl through garbage. Crawl through garbage, fire hoses spraying on you, crawl through the whole ship, the bathrooms. I mean it's pretty gross, right. I mean they're squirting water all over you, everything crawling through muck and but yeah, so it was an experience. I can say I'm a shellback. I know they have coins.
Speaker 1:I'll probably get a coin someday, you know I'm I'm kind of jealous because we did so. We did a north atlantic cruise, um, but I, halfway through, I got shipped off to computer school, oh okay, and so I got to do all the fun stuff, except I didn't get to get my shell back gotcha so you know, 21 years in the military and I'm not a shellback.
Speaker 2:I'm ashamed to say, say that across from a Marine that got to do it. Hey, that's the thing, right, everybody here is a different deployment, a different place. Someone went. I wish I could have done more, I wish I could have done some different things, but that's life, right, I'm thankful for what I did do and I'm proud of what I did. I would probably say, uh, this too, I didn't realize that the whole shellback thing, the equator, is not only practiced by the military but also civilian vessels as well. It's kind of interesting fact and for whatever, I don't, I can't remember the history, how this started, but uh, it's a thing that's done by a lot of people and they've they've done it.
Speaker 2:Um, but there's, I'd say there's a lot of people that aren't aware this is even a thing right and that's what's neat, and I think even just a podcast, uh, I'll listen to them and you learn so much from different people and I like the variety. But as far as military goes, I could see people thinking about going in. Man, it's, it's. It's a good thing to hear these different points of views and little things that might not you might not hear in mainstream like, uh, you know movies or things like that, right, but it's nitty-gritty.
Speaker 1:A life in the military right, and I well, and I think stuff like the showback, initiation or the blue nose or the order of the rock, I mean there's a hundred of them right. Yeah, it just builds camaraderie and brotherhood and sisterhood. It does, it really does.
Speaker 2:And I think, again, it helps people on ship from killing each other, because I saw a few fights on ship. I mean, what do you expect? You're cramped in these quarters. I think you were stacked what? Three, three high, I think it might have been even four. It might have some areas, yeah, uh. So you have this little coffin of a sleeping space. You can't even sit up and I you lift the bottom of the mattress and you have a little storage space barely any and maybe a stupid end like wall locker for every marines putting all their field gear. So, yeah, very cramped.
Speaker 2:But what's funniest is you could imagine you go to port, right, you have a lot of Marines come back drunk and then the ship takes off. Well, you have all these safety straps, right? Yeah, so guys, girls, don't fall out. Well, I don't think anybody ever used those that I live by. And so of course, we hit rough seas right away, yeah, and in the middle of night you just hear I was like what the hell? Oh, all these marines are falling off their racks. So you know, I'm like, oh, maybe I'll put my strap up might be a good idea.
Speaker 1:I am. I actually learned to sleep with my legs like shaped like a four, so you didn't roll out of your rack. That's impressive. It's weird because I still sleep that way and my house never gets underway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, some habits are they die hard or don't die they do and just like I'm sure you have the ability to sleep Anywhere, anywhere. You know, I prefer not to ground anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too yeah.
Speaker 2:But if, uh, you know I prefer not to ground anymore. Um, yeah, so, but if I sit on a chair more than an hour, it's kind of hard to stay awake because your body is so used like hey, we have some time for rack ops, let's take advantage of this and get some shut eye yeah, you sleep when you can that's that's no lie.
Speaker 1:So you uh, you finish up your uh, your deployment in japan, and then you come back stateside we come back stateside.
Speaker 2:I think we had a couple weeks leave. Uh-huh got to go home um so hold on, you're still.
Speaker 1:You're still dating your high school. Was she your high school sweetheart? Yes, yeah, so you're still dating her.
Speaker 2:Yes, when all this is going on, yeah, uh, you know you find someone that you connect with and it was worth trying. So we did, and throughout, you know, when I'd be out in California, she spent a lot of money on plane tickets, and I did too when I could you know, for even a four-day weekend or whatever. So yeah, I get back my senior Marines. Get out, we're now the senior guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I get pushed in. So I started off as a rifleman, then I was a saw gunner for most of my boot time. Then I get back and I'm a squad leader. So now I'm in charge of 12 Marines, three fire teams, sometimes attachments you might get like a machine gun attachment or whatnot. So, yeah, that was a good learning experience, because again. So, job interview, tell us about your leadership capabilities while I supervised, trained and cared for 12 marines plus attachments. That's a pretty big responsibility, especially training, then going into a combat environment, right, and at the age of what would have been 22, I think yeah, well, think about this too, like you know, look at people in the military, and to your point, the amount of responsibility that you have in your 20s and so when you do finally get out and you go to interview for a job and and they're like wow, you're going to be in charge of four people.
Speaker 2:Can you?
Speaker 1:handle that You're like. Are you freaking, kidding me?
Speaker 2:Right, and just like, well, tell us about your work ethic. Well, I mean, I was trained to work until I die. Basically, I mean hiking up this mountain or attacking this hill or whatever carrying a guy. It's like how many times I felt my heart about to explode.
Speaker 1:Is you know and you in? I don't want this to go uh unnoticed either.
Speaker 2:I mean, as a saw gunner, you're humping that thing around yeah, I don't even know, I don't remember the weight of that thing. But you know, a fully automatic small machine gun basically, uh, each um thing of rounds you know is 200 rounds, and that's. Those are heavy. So usually you'd have, you know, a raid pack or something to throw in a few extra drums, uh, and then you get one on you and you got an extra barrel, you know, because they get hot so yeah, it's a lot of weight.
Speaker 2:And then so you figure, not only in combat, but the training it's man you got I don't know, 50 to 100-pound, pack your weapon, all your rounds. Then we go on hikes from 10 to. I think our biggest one was like 26 or 27 miles, maybe pushing 30. Yeah, up mountains, camp Pendleton is very hilly. Uh, yeah, I've ate shit a lot. A lot of marines have, um, even boot camp. It's funny because you're so sleep deprived and we all walked off the trail falling asleep while you're walking. I learned how to piss while I was walking.
Speaker 2:Um, it's messy yeah, yeah you, but you got to do it. All of a sudden you'll be hiking up towards the end of boot camp and hiking up this mountain and you'll see a guy. You're kind of delirious yourself. And then you'll see a guy go and just fall down this cliffside Like oh fuck.
Speaker 1:What happened? Yeah, where'd he go.
Speaker 2:And the coolest part about it if anytime in the Marine Corps you fall out of a hike, you get the silver bullet. Tell me about that. Okay, that's a butt thermometer. Oh, nice yeah so it looks like a Coors Light can. So that scared the shit out of me. So every time before a hike I'd pound the Gatorade and order a pizza, because I was like I ain't going out like that. No, you walk by this poor fellow.
Speaker 1:He's got his pants down around his ankles and the corpsman shoving a core thermometer up his butt right and the whole unit's walking by him yeah I mean, you talk about embarrassing well, and there's a reason why they're shoving that thermometer up his butt, though because I want to make sure he's okay and I get that. But I mean I want people to understand we're not just putting thermometers in people's butts for no reason.
Speaker 2:There's well, right, right, like yeah, talk about hazing, you know, yeah, yeah, we're not doing that for their own enjoyment, exactly so yeah, uh, that was always a motivating factor for me yeah, to stay hydrated and to keep your salt consumption up and and carb load and and, uh, you know, as a especially as squad leader, we'd have guys fall out and it's not about like, oh, I'm tough, but you know, yeah, we're all hurt. And, especially as a leader, you have to push that down Because a lot of times training you feel like you're honestly breaking and falling apart and dying. I mean, and I talk about you know they refer to these hikes as humps. Okay, so on these humps, you know it's great training for combat because you learn how to deal with pain, suffering, teamwork, I mean. So what this means.
Speaker 2:If you have a Marine starting to fall out and he's carrying a saw gun, as a leader you need to take that saw gun and keep that marine in the fight. So we take on their gear, their weapons, make it a little easier for them so they can continue, but as the leaders and other marines taking on that gear, that sucks because we're not doing fine. We're just manning up and doing what we got to do.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're the example. You're setting the example for your junior folks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's so important. As a leader, you have to lead by example. We had some senior Marines, higher-ups, first sergeants. We had some that were very awesome, and when I was a senior Marine, we had some that come from the air wing which I don't really understand. You take someone from a non-combat unit and then you bring them to the infantry.
Speaker 1:I mean Well, and then put them in charge.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and for many aspects right, like conditioning, just like a marathon runner. Conditioning just like a marathon runner, like I ran one when I got out and I remember, you know, I could just go around 26.2 miles, right, why not? I could mentally, but your body has to be conditioned to deal with that and during all that, you know strain and whatnot. So it's the same thing. You know, when you're doing these hikes and humps, you got to mentally condition your body and I I would see these higher up marines fall out and it's, it's just a slap like in it. They weren't, you know, from dehydration, it was just the mental toughness was not there, right. So that's one thing I I'd like to see maybe looked at. I don't know what the reasoning is, but that's not a good thing for your younger Marines to see.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:It weakens their morale to a point. If you have great leadership and they take care of you, we all know you're going to go above and beyond and do what you're asked to do because you believe in the mission, you believe in your leadership and I carry that on in life to this day. I'm sure most of us vets do.
Speaker 1:Right, right. If you make sure people are fed and paid and they know that, even though whatever you're doing completely sucks, they know that you're there with them and that you're supporting them they'll do anything you want them to do.
Speaker 2:Well, it's just like when I worked in the Department of Corrections for 12 years. It's a shitty job and a thankless job, but you work with amazing people and because of that, having amazing coworkers for the most part it makes your job okay you can have the best job in the world. That's easy. But if you work with people that you know they don't want to be there, they complain all the time you get shitty leadership. It's just funny how that can be. Just like in the military some of the best times of my life, some of the worst times but when I look back at a whole, I don't regret it at all for the most part and I, you know, I look at it as a positive experience overall.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, even even the times that weren't great, you learn, you're, you were. You learned something. Sometimes you learn how not to lead.
Speaker 2:You do. And I think again that's a huge leadership characteristic, right?
Speaker 2:Because the best leaders can follow too, and and just because you know yourself, yourself, you know what you're doing there may be a time where a younger person has a suggestion and it's okay to hear them and take that, and if it's not a good idea, hey, thank you for sharing that thought, but we're going to do it this way and maybe explain it if there's time. Then you'll see leaders that take that suggestion. I think that's awesome because it was a good idea and they might not know everything, but you have to be like that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, well, I read a book about leadership written by a Navy SEAL. You know, I read a book about leadership written by a Navy SEAL and one of the things he said was if someone comes up with an idea that's 70% of how you would have done it, let them run with it, because that 30% probably doesn't matter. That's true as long as they're 70% 80% to what you want, you're going to get the desired outcome. It builds them as leaders too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It gives them confidence and makes them feel part of the team and they're valued. All that stuff I totally agree, and I've never heard it put that way. But yeah, I I used to listen to jacko a lot. Yeah, leadership, uh, and I I'd love it, because a lot of stuff you kind of know, but there's a lot of awesome points that like, oh, that's, that's a good idea, yeah, and then try to incorporate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I think that what he teaches in that is so very important that you have to own the whole thing, but you also own it with the people that are around you.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think it's so important in life, right, like whether it's learning to be a leader, whether it's not making the same mistakes others have. We have to learn from each other and and you have to be open to that, because why make that same mistake? Someone has been through this before. Learn from them, right?
Speaker 1:you know well in a lot of times that I mean, that goes back to the, to your kids, right, you want them to learn from the stupid stuff that you did, right, but sometimes they just don't. But, uh, I do want to go back, though. So you um, you're, you're back, and now you're a leader in um. I'm making the assumption here that you guys are getting ready to deploy somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we, we heard the uh scuttlebutt, the rumors, so-called in the military, and you know they can only tell us so much. But we're here in the word, you know, watching the news about the buildup of Iraq possibly. So, where you knew this was going to be a different workup, a different deployment, uh, we were a helicopter company, golf company, um, so all of our methods of insertion and extraction, predominantly we utilize helicopters, uh, ch 53, the big, huge helicopter, the CH 46, like the Chinook, the double rotor, um, and the Hueys. So between those we'd rotate, uh, you know, various means of, you know repelling, sometimes uh fast roping, uh spy rigging, and sometimes just laying in the bird on the ground and jumping off real quick. So that's how we trained for our first deployment, our combat deployment.
Speaker 2:We knew that was coming was Amtrak's, so the amphibious vehicles and I get you know that's what we were going to use for the invasion. So we had to kind of shift you know Fox Company and 2-5, they're a boat company. Kind of shift, you know fox company and two, five, they're a boat company, so that they primarily just trained with uh inserting from water, right, okay, uh. So we all kind of had to shift this new transportation method and working with, you know, the amtrak crews and the, you know it gave us time to kind of get to know each other and see how we can work together in a combat role, and we lived on those things Adapt and overcome yeah so one of the big training things we did before deployment we went to Victorville, california.
Speaker 2:It's an old Air Force base or a portion of it is closed down, so it was a new thing that we went into these buildings, windows, doors, everything and we got to break them and bust them in full combat experience. It was the most realistic thing besides combat, because when we went there.
Speaker 1:We had I forget gear yeah, suits with a laser, uh-huh so and it was well orchestrated.
Speaker 2:We had four. We had people dressed up as civilians. I remember like there was news there and uh, they made it as realistic as possible. And then you have a casualty. You go through the whole thing or sometimes someone makes a bad mistake, say they're exposing themselves, they're not taking cover. One of the uh the trainers would walk by and just shoot your miles gear, all right, he's dead. Now what? Okay, fireman's carry, grab a litter, get them out. While you're in a combat situation you're being shot at and man it kind of, for a minute you feel like it's real, your adrenaline's going. You know, I mean all these different things we did. It's the conditioning, the muscle memory. So when it actually happens and I know it's not all easy, but at least certain elements, you all just fall into place and things are a well-oiled machine, you know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it's so true.
Speaker 1:You don't even have to think, you just go into autopilot right and you have all these uh ttps and all these different ways that you're going to fight and, uh, generally speaking, none of that really survives the first shot. But you have a plan right, and then you can change that plan as you go along, but at least you're starting out with something.
Speaker 2:Yes, and, and so true, and I mean the fog of war is real, right, and, and, whether that's a beach landing, or in the dense vegetation of Vietnam, or where, or in the desert, or an urban environment, and the interesting thing about Iraq is, uh, it's very diversified. Down South you have a lot of just open oil fields, desert.
Speaker 2:You get a lot more vegetated as you push North, and actually North of Baghdad it's actually, I felt, like Vietnam, very lush, you know, you have rivers you had, I was like, and that's where we got into our most severe firefight and that was called the bridge at Taramiya in Iraq. So basically what we did is we got to Kuwait and we stayed there for whatever it was 14 days or whatever.
Speaker 1:It is A month Acclimation. Oh yeah, well, actually we were there for like a month plus 14 days or whatever.
Speaker 2:It is A month Acclimation, oh yeah, well, actually we were there for like a month plus, I think. Good Lord, yeah, well, you were at the beginning, though, we were at the beginning, so basically, we got to this camp and it had nothing, Right, we're living in fighting holes.
Speaker 2:Even when we got tents, that's all we really had. When we get tents, that's all we really had. And we get to come into the tent and stay there for a couple days and then go play fuck, fuck, training games. You know, which is good and intentional and there's a reason. But go out, dig a defensive perimeter and maybe see a camel way out in a distance with a camel herder. Yeah, uh, but yeah, so that was about it until we finally got word. You know it's go time from that point forward. You know, we went and staged just like jarhead at the big berms by the oil rigs and waiting for that final word to cross over.
Speaker 2:And we did and uh, it was living out of an Amtrak, full mop for gear rubber boots, charcoal lined pants, top gas mask, rubber gloves. You already have combat boots on. Then you pull rubber gloves over that. Keep in mind, these Amtracks are not air conditioned, right, and we're packed, cram packed in there. So we're living on this Amtrak. Whatever it was. A month, a lot of this. I don't have exact dates and durations, right, because it's a blur. It's not like on my deployment, I was just at a established camp with showers and all that yeah, I was, yeah every time was just it's hard to comprehend well, and you know, you know I don't want the point to be lost either when we talk about mop gear.
Speaker 1:That is your chemical biological suit and it's basically it reminds me of the rubber suits that wrestlers would wear so that they could make weight. Only you're in the desert. It's 120, 130 degrees. You're inside this freaking vehicle that's like an Easy-Bake oven. You have all this crap on.
Speaker 2:You're lucky that you remember that part of it, let alone how long you were doing something. And I would even add to that. So, like the suit, it's kind of like maybe a Gore-Tex suit but it's charcoal lined so it's not light, it's kind of crinkly and bulky.
Speaker 1:It doesn't breathe.
Speaker 2:It not light, it's. It's kind of crinkly and it doesn't breathe. It doesn't breathe. And then we had to tape around our seam with our where our boots met our pants. Yeah so, yeah, uh, and the hatch was buttoned up in the back amtrak. I don't remember the temperature. Obviously, there's times it was 100 out and then inside that thing was well over 100 hundred. Yeah so, you know, uh, it was disgusting. I didn't take a shower. I think we didn't take a shower for over a month, yeah, month and a half.
Speaker 1:You can imagine the smells right, I mean, fortunately you got. You got nose blind right.
Speaker 2:So you didn't. Yeah, I mean, we had to wear those suits, I think the first few days, and after that, like, we got to drop the gas mask and the gloves and the boots and then we kind of just had to hang on to the suits and then, well, yeah, that was an experience, I would say. I mean, so combat loads in these Amtrak's, packed overly packed with attachments and everything, I mean we're crammed and the way these seats are. I think it was a seat on each edge of the Amtrak, then there was a middle seat Right, Just like some helicopters. So that idea is you're staggered, right, so you're sitting here. Basically my knee goes in between your knees and then it's like back and forth, you're just crammed.
Speaker 2:And I remember guys were getting so pissed off at one point that you know a couple fights broke out and it was funny because they, they were fighting like this. They can't even move their arms, they were like trying to head beat it, but each other and right and here, right next to them, they got like at4s and grenades and like dude, what are you doing? You know, just wait you can get.
Speaker 1:You're eventually going to get out of here.
Speaker 2:You can beat each other's asses then yeah, so you know, sometimes comms is not, uh, working well right and sometimes the track, the lid up top, is buttoned down. So as far as like situational awareness, fog of war type stuff, it it was tough, you know, um and so you're convoying up into iraq, then, we're convoying, yeah, uh, so, regimental combat team five um, yeah it, uh, we're.
Speaker 2:We're pretty much towards the tip of the spear, 1st Marine Division. So there was a lot of different branches, a lot of different units. I mean, I can imagine trying to coordinate this stuff. You guys got coming in parachuting in, you got all these armored vehicles coming in, you got ground troops. I mean, for the most part part we were all mechanized but uh, you know. So, yeah, we're essentially rolling up in a convoy of different aspects. You know, like I think we were kind of online as one big unit pushing forward for the most part, and then we got to highways and there's times we'd all be you know two lines of military, just like you see in the movies, moving up one of saddam's highways yeah um, you know, then there's times you're more in dense vegetation and you're.
Speaker 2:then you get out on foot and whatnot. But it was a lot of pushing north, you know, punching out into a town or something, dig it in for the night in a perimeter and then the next day doing it all over. Sometimes we'd be in a spot for a day, sometimes it'd be a couple days, but that was our life for a few weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was, yeah, living out of Amtrak. I mean, I remember one time we actually I don't know who was the genius at playing this, but we were in a landfill and that's where we dug in our defensive perimeter for the night. So I'm digging with my E-tool, which is a little, you know, shovel.
Speaker 1:Fold-up shovel.
Speaker 2:That is great. It's multipurpose, right? You can dig a hole. You're fighting position. You can bend the shovel over and use it for one butt cheek to take a dump. Yeah yeah, it's a pickaxe, it's a shovel, so you dig your holes.
Speaker 2:While I'm digging in this trash, I'm seeing used needles. I'm seeing dead bodies. You know, it's stray dogs coming up to you. I remember the first couple of dead Iraqis I saw. They were on the ground. They looked like they were some part of a military unit. I think one had civilian clothes on and another had remnants of a Republican Guard uniform. But they were there for a couple of days.
Speaker 2:I think Rigor mortis was set in All these dogs. I look at these dogs right and they're playing out in the field with something. I'm like what the heck? Well, it's got this guy's intestines and he strung it out. This dog ran away and strung it out, playing with intestines flopping up in the air, probably 100 feet away. Oh, my god, and that was I mean, besides funerals and whatnot, that was my, you know, first like experience seeing a dead body, like it was kind of fucked up, kind of funny, right? Well, yeah, it's, I think. I mean, I, I don't know, it's part of the experience. Right, you're young. I walked up to these dead guys and I just kicked him with my boot like huh, you know uh yeah, so that that's what it is, though yeah, what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1:it's, it's like you. You can't afford to look at it any differently and, quite honestly, afterwards it's a lot easier to not look at it any differently.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was a lot of pushing north, coordinating with other units, leapfrogging, sporadic firefights pretty small for the most part, it's a lot of like pop shots, and you know this is another thing that's tough is conventional warfare unit on unit uniformed. I did uh vehicles identified. That's a different beast right, this is asymmetric and you don't.
Speaker 2:This is asymmetric guerrilla warfare. These guys, you know, it's kind of like saddam hey you're gonna stay in your post, or I'm gonna kill your family or whatever kind of thing he had, a lot of these guys would abandon. You know it's kind of like Saddam hey, you're going to stay in your post, or I'm going to kill your family or whatever kind of thing he had, a lot of these guys would abandon. You know, there's a lot of guys just giving up at first. But then you get up further North and there's guys, you know, that would pretty much strip their uniform off, be in civilian clothes, take a few pop shots, drop the weapon, walk away. And how do you combat that? And you gotta be mindful, you can't just you know weapons yeah, weapons free.
Speaker 2:You're not just shooting anybody, um, now, obviously, if they're a threat of any sort a child, a woman, a man, I mean it's a different story. But uh, it's very. You constantly are thinking and evaluating. You know, target civilian it's a tough thing to combat and I think you know, um, that was pretty much what we experienced until we got north of Baghdad and I remember we were on the side of one of those highways, punched out, taking a break, whatever, eating, chow, eating lunch, and I heard a lot of chatter on the radio, yelling and stuff. And first platoon went to reconnaissance, a bridge crossing because we had to, I guess, punch over this river, and they got ambushed. Now, this was by a syrian unit and because we found out when we were withdrawing, looking at the ids, they were all syrians and they were all dressed in black full body pajamas. Um, so kind of not what you expect fighting in ir right, at least as a young Marine. Now we reflect and we see what's all happened and you know there's a lot of movement in the middle East of different countries supporting ISIS and whatnot. Um, but yeah, so we, we got the word. First platoon got ambushed and, uh, you know, a few guys got shot and and whatnot. And, uh, you know, a few guys got shot and and whatnot. One of the amtracks took a uh rpg right in the driver's like turret area, and uh, I think he got out with injuries. But um, we get there and you know, again, it's just like the movies. We pull up in an armored vehicle, the hatch goes down.
Speaker 2:I was the first one out. I couldn't really see much. The fog of war is real, right, I knew first platoon was ambushed under attack, but I couldn't hear nothing on the radio. It was just screaming pretty much. I mean, I wish it was clear and concise like the movies, but a lot of times it's just chaos. And there's, you talk about just things blowing up and smoke and people screaming and the, the guys that were there on the ground. As soon as I had strapped, I run out and I I didn't. I couldn't really tell where the enemy was right, because there's a building over here. Guys are shooting in the bushes over here there's. So it's like a three-dimensional 360. You know environment, it's not just this building we're taking fire from yeah so first platoon uh, timothy tardiff, he, uh, he got shot.
Speaker 2:I don't remember all the details. Another guy, gardner, got shot. Tardiff was a squad leader at the time. This is a pretty cool story because there's a book written on it. It's called.
Speaker 2:Marco Martinez is the author. It's called Hard Corps, like Marine Corps, c-o-r-p-s, from Gangster to Marine Hero, and he was actually involved in gangs growing up, but he ended up getting a Navy cross, I think it was for his actions that day. So his squad leader got shot and another guy was shot and they were taking fire from this two-story building while pretty much Marco Martinez, before we got there, assaulted this building. He had problems with his M16. It was jamming. I think. He threw that down, grabbed an AK off a dead guy he shot, stormed this building, got up, chucked a couple grenades in this building, ran in and shot everybody that was left Suppressed, that took care of that building, so we could start getting a helicopter and getting some of these guys cast of act. And, um, yeah, pretty incredible. Yeah, I think it was a first hispanic marine or service member to be awarded the navy cross since vietnam, if I'm correct.
Speaker 2:Well, but uh, this book wrote he was in my same unit. He was first platoon, I was second. So I found that even reading that book, I really got into reading military books because you can relate and, uh, I think it wasn't right away, but maybe like 10 years after I got out it was an element of like you know, it was soothing and it was relatable and because you're not with these guys anymore, right, so there are stories. But the cool thing about reading Marco Martinez book is he talked about from when he first got in, which was when I got in the same time the same unit, and I refer to that as golf company. Again, he was first, I was second platoon, but it was a cool book to share with family and friends because it was like this is a great depiction of my military time. I mean, I wasn't him, but as far as you can take a lot from the deployments and and this and that, just military life, yeah very, very similar paths but yeah, so so that whole thing happened.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, we unloaded on some buildings and some guys in the woods. And uh, one of my guys in my squad, he took, uh, just a small portion of shrapnel from a pineapple grenade. Uh, another guy in my squad, he took out that guy. He was like hiding in a little ravine like a ditch. Um, and we get back to camp finally, and uh, or that night where we stayed in fighting holes, and the guy that took shrapnel and it was just above his kneecap, the doc had one of those big cotton swabs and he actually could push it all the way through one hole and through the other hole he just cleaned. I'm like, oh, that's kind of weird you know yeah but yeah, so you know that whole firefight happened.
Speaker 2:Uh, thankfully it could have been much worse and thankfully to marco martinez doing what he did, uh, we got there and pretty much helped clean up what was left. And then it was like, okay, grab IDs, grab whatever you can, pat down these enemies and get whatever intel we can get and let's get out. So they got the helicopters in. As soon as the helicopters were flying out, we started withdrawal. And as we started withdrawal, I'm looking out top of the Amtrak, looking back, looking back, you know, and just seeing shit on fire and, like I say, lush vegetation looks. I'm in a vietnam movie. It's what it felt like I was in a movie.
Speaker 2:And then we saw these fast movers coming in and they just bombed the fuck out of this area and then, probably a mile down the road, our whole convoy is leaving real fast, right, all of a sudden coming towards us. We see all these black convies. I non-uniform guys like pass us. Oh, they're going to get some, get some intel, whatever. But I thought, oh, that's cool, you know, delta or something, maybe seals, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So special operations yeah so I tell you that the adrenaline dump that was yeah, because you're probably pretty spun up for quite a while oh yeah, and then finally like one big real firefight, uh yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think at that time we had a little like half-assed compound outside of Baghdad. So we get back there and you know some of our leaders again good leadership they uh, they managed to get some like third world whiskey from, uh, civilians and we all, you know, did a cheers to a shot or two and kind of wrapped the night up there. You know, had some chow and yeah, like I say, a firefight. But you know we were in and out within a few hours and you know you hear about these battles that go on for days and tons of guys killed, and it's just. I mean, you can measure your experience to others, but at the end of the day, I'm just proud of what I did and what guys did with me. And at the end of the day, you know you do it for them, right, you do it for the one serving on your left and right. And so what I would say with that?
Speaker 2:I talked to a few guys over the years, right, I talked to a few guys over the years, right, and when I was working in the prison I had some health stuff happen and, long story short, went out by ambulance from an anxiety attack which I've never had, to that extent Thought I was having a heart attack, and I did some reflection and I, you know this happened I think less than a week after my dad passed unexpectedly a couple years ago. So I did a lot of reflection and I knew right away I had to get out of that job. I think my life I was exposed to a lot of death, destruction and negative aspects of humanity and I knew for my own good, for my mental health, for my body, for my family, as much as I liked that job I mean I was working a lot. I was a recreation director. I I started as an officer and then I took a job as, like the recreational director that you know, would set up their athletic stuff and you know well I want it, so I want to.
Speaker 1:I want to set this up for people listening right yeah sort of did a big jump, sure, um and and so, uh. So you, you did your deployment and you came home after. So how long were you there in?
Speaker 2:Iraq, in Iraq, I think it was on a year, I think it was like nine months. Okay, what I was just getting to real quick is this bond you for him. Uh, when I did this reflection, if I would have stayed working for the state, um, I wouldn't probably took time and reconnected with these buddies. But since this all happened, we've since done two reunion trips, one to texas, uh, kind of went hog hunting a lot of just you know, drinking, hanging out and reconnecting.
Speaker 2:I tell you, you know you go 20 years with not seeing guys, but they're your brothers. You've been in the shit together. The the biggest, strongest bonds are forged in diversity. I think in negative times, people's real intentions and character you don't really see them. In the good times, right, it's the adversity. I feel like that's when the bonds really happen. So, yeah, we hang out and it's just like yesterday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, isn't that the funny thing, though you sit down with your buddies and it's. I experienced this a couple of weeks ago. I went to an event and there was a handful of guys that I had deployed with, but I haven't seen them since 2007. And it was like nothing had changed. Yeah, we all looked older, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But nothing had really changed. And I want to go back to something you said too. You talked about how you, how those bonds are forged in adversity and um, you know, one of the things I learned in combat was that, yeah, that's, you don't build character there, you reveal character, absolutely. There's a huge difference between those two things, and that's exactly what you were saying yes I knew who these people were because of what happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would go back to like okay, even in training, excuse me, our platoon guide, right? Uh, you know, big strong guy, all state wrestler, whatever. Uh, yeah, he was a PT stud. He was awesome he could. He could yell. He was a pt stud. He was awesome, he could, he could yell. He was a great leader. That was awesome. In garrison, we moved up north and started doing stuff in the field. He started to slowly slip. Lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, you know, all these big muscles aren't getting enough protein. Um, you'll see little guys rise and can handle this right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's not the biggest, toughest guys and you always hear that. I mean, you might see this guy that's always got the polished boots, the squared-away press uniform. We're in an infantry and there's a time for that, I get it, but we should not concentrate on that. We don't need wall locker inspections. We need to be in the field, uh, crafting our skill right and you know, um, it is interesting because, whether in training or combat, you'll think, oh, this guy's locked on, he's gonna be there. Um, not saying they go a wall and leave a firefight.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying their mental toughness, their, their will to push forward, uh, you can't, you can't judge it, no, just how they look you know, no, and then that's the interesting thing too, because I find that the guys who are the biggest challenges in garrison, yes, yes are the guys you want in combat yeah, and I totally agree and that was a funny thing I was going to add to as well is that you see, these guys that weren't anything special, they'd show up to formation, fucked up camis or unpolished boots and you know whatever. They're just kind of a fuck-up, maybe they drank too much, but geez old Pete's, they're a hell. You know, when shit hits the fan, it's like wow dude, that kind of surprised me. That's the dude you want next to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like hell. Yeah, you know, we used to say you can't polish a turd, you know.
Speaker 2:You can make it glisten sometimes, but it's still a turd Right, right, and you're not going to be able to count on this guy in garrison.
Speaker 1:He's going to get you in trouble every time, right, but not when you're in combat, right, and that you don't just dump people off because of how they act in garrison. You really have to kind of look at that whole person.
Speaker 2:You do and you can't give up on anybody. You got to keep working on them and we all had an experience, I think, where, hey, there's kind of this turn and guess what bud, you're in charge of this guy. Oh, thank you, you know. But a lot of these guys can be turned around, you know, you show them, you care, you know, and sometimes they're a lost cause, and that I mean you try to save the ones you can, or you know, whether it's re-motivating them, taking some extra time to train them on a weapon system, you know they.
Speaker 2:Just some guys need a little more attention.
Speaker 1:Well, I think those lessons translate into your civilian life as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So you served four years, then total, in the Marine Corps.
Speaker 2:Four years active duty Okay.
Speaker 1:And then did you come back to Michigan when you got out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my wife and I rented a U-Haul truck and a car trailer and we drove back home. Any kids at this point.
Speaker 1:No, okay, no, so it's just you and her. Just aren't those like the most beautiful times though? Like they are think about that early part of your marriage and I love my kids but you think about the time yeah, but yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 2:I think every chapter in life you have to embrace it and enjoy it and, just like when kids are young, it's life's so busy go, go, go and. And now you know, my kids are getting older, one out of high school, one on her way towards the end, you know, on her way out, and, uh, you know, I just try to embrace each chapter yeah, you know because it changes and I know it'll.
Speaker 1:it'll be another chapter when they're out, and you know yeah absolutely, but yeah, so I didn't mean to interrupt your chain of thru. So you rent this U-Haul trailer and you head back home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was a fun experience because on the way out to California we thought let's go south, cut through the panhandle of Texas and Oklahoma, you know, stopped at some things. We stopped by the Oklahoma oklahoma monument for the the bombing there, and stopped by the grand canyon. That was pretty cool. It was actually snowing when we stopped. Yeah, I didn't really envision that when I'd, you know, see the grand canyon for my first time. Uh, yeah, it's. You know, stopped a few places, made it a nice few-day trip. Wasn't trying to kill myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, going through some of those plain states, flat, it's boring and I feel a lot of appreciation for semi-truck drivers. You know, going through them states, nebraska, iowa, winds picking up and hitting, it's just like, wow, it's a constant battle trying to stay in your lane, but yeah, so then when we came home we went through the northern route and hit like Utah, colorado, las Vegas, you know, kind of shot over that way, why not see some of the country, right, yeah, most people, I don't think, think take a cross-country trip. I mean, maybe to a point, but, uh, let's make the most of it, check some stuff out, take a few days each way. And uh, yeah, we came back home and and started life back home. You know, like I said, I've lived throughout mid michigan, um, and you know I I did commercial construction when I first got out for about five years and it was a good job, I had a pension. But, uh, it takes a toll on your body and my. My body has been through a lot, especially mainly because of Marine Corps. No regrets.
Speaker 2:How do you expect it? Not, it's a lot of weight, a lot of pounding, you know, on your knees, on your back. Um, I thought, geez, and here I am pouring concrete and, jack Cameron, I wake up in the morning I can't even stand up or my hands are locked up, like I got to look at something different. So I wanted a break from that military structure and wearing a uniform and all that. I'm like, wow, the state's hiring, you know COs. So I applied, interviewed, then they put a pause on hiring. So about two years later I get a call and then I transitioned to the state as a corrections officer. Tough job, thankless job.
Speaker 2:I was proud of what I did, though you know I I try to work hard and do my best. Everything I did, you know I I was on the uh emergency response team, which is like their SWAT team. I did that for a few years best training they have. It was fun. Yeah, um, you know I helped with the security threat group, stg group for like gangs and stuff and uh, I volunteered and did a lot of stuff. I helped special olympics. I raised thousands of dollars.
Speaker 2:I was selected to run on the uh the whole. It's called the central route for special olympics in michigan. So what they do and I know a lot of people are kind of aware of these runs and polar plunges. Yeah, I've done the polar plunge a couple times too. That was fun. Um, honestly, when you jump in ice cold water, it just burns. Yeah, it's not even cold for a while. Uh, you know good cause, but it was kind of neat because you get three big RVs, right State police make up an RV, department of Corrections make up an RV, and then local law enforcement. So basically, however, each department wants to select their people. They select people from throughout their department and they make this team. So, going back to the military, I didn't know any of these people. I was thrown on an RV and we're driving from, uh, lansing, michigan up to Copper Harbor, right, and then so you get on this RV with people you don't know and you're just living with them.
Speaker 2:Good yeah, and I I did fine, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's awkward a little bit, but you just, if it's something you've done, I mean it wasn't that hard for me so it was pretty cool. Before the run I raised, you know, you say, through selling t-shirts and whatnot and different raffle tickets, we did, I think. Personally, I raised like $5,000 or $6,000 for Special Olympics. Then going on this route raises money and you have all these small community runs during the same run week. So whether it's like Mount Pleasant, lansing, jackson, wherever Traverse City, they'll have these community runs. It's like I don't't know a few mile, run 5k and you know you get a t-shirt, you go do it.
Speaker 2:It's not timed, you just run together as a unit. Usually local cops come in or firefighters and I have a flag and if a few of those we timed right. So as we're running across state, from Calumet all the way down to detroit to bell isle, raising awareness, we're carrying the torch the whole time. So the setup of these rvs is they leapfrog each other. So, whatever, we had like eight people on each rv. You rotate through the rv running and that's like what? Four or five hours of running that rv, then the next rv that just got done, they'll pass forward and they'll go stay at a hotel for like four or five hours, not a whole night's sleep, just enough. Take a shower, lay in the bed and then you're getting up and you're going to meet to do your next run. So we did that for a week straight, made it all the way down to bell isle.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I did that with the department. I feel like I did a. I did a lot, did a lot of good, a lot of fundraisers for staff members going through tough times. Um, yeah, I mean I made the most of it. Like I said, it's a, it's a more of a thankless job, but I was proud of what I did in the time I had. I just knew it was time to make a change. And you know, I'm not really in that line of work anymore. I occasionally do a little side work construction stuff but kind of just still on my journey trying to figure out what's next.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you, so I want to talk a little bit about your family, if that's okay. Sure, you have two daughters, then I have one son and one daughter. One son and one daughter, all right. So tell me some things. So is your son your?
Speaker 2:oldest. He's my oldest. Yep, he's two years older than my daughter. Tell me a little bit about him. He's amazing. He's going to a local college right now. He kind of switched his mind on, you know, a major, which we all do. He's a kid, he's a kid, and yeah, so we'll see what he decides to do. And, uh, you know, my daughter's very smart. She's gonna do something amazing, I don't know what yet whatever profession she gets into, yeah, what about your wife?
Speaker 1:When you think about her, what's something that pops into your head.
Speaker 2:Oh, she's been a rock my whole life We've been through I feel like you know, the gauntlet together If you can survive a long-term relationship, a combat deployment or a couple deployments? Um, obviously we all go through stuff through the years ourselves, each other, family, you know. Sickness, uh, death, um yeah, she's an amazing woman and, uh, happily married that's great.
Speaker 1:I know how long have you been married.
Speaker 2:Got married in 2002.
Speaker 1:So 23 years.
Speaker 2:That's not nothing, that's for sure. No, absolutely. And again I go back to this yeah, I got married younger and had kids younger, but I grew up fast. A lot of things are put in perspective and I'm thankful for that. Yeah, you know, I always thought it'd be cool too to to not be 60 years old trying to throw a football with my little kid, you know, yeah, and having some, uh, energy and physical ability left in me when the kids are gone to still do some stuff and travel. So now, on the flip side, I always wanted to serve just a four-year contract, do my service and then move on to something different. And having a family in the military never appealed to me, right? I know it's tough, right, it's tough on everybody the kids, I think it's the toughest on getting pulled up and uprooted every few years. So we decided, you know, I never wanted to make a career out of it, so that was easy, right, but that was kind of my thought, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah and um. So, if you want to, I want to talk a little bit about your exiting the Department of Corrections. So you talked about this a little bit earlier and I kind of sidetracked you because I kind of wanted to get the whole story. So you were at work and you had a panic attack, basically yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So obviously there's elements of the military to this day of serving that you live with right, and I'm fine with that. I think it's a combination of long-term exposure to tough work and then lose my dad, and then I was the only one that did my job. Yeah, I could have took a whole week off or whatever, but I came back a couple of days after and, uh, it was too soon. But here I am, I'm trying to keep up with my job. That's my work ethic, right, I knew I needed to get there because it only things would fall apart. Um, and I was working overtime as an officer still part Um, and I was working overtime as an officer still. So I would typically do like 12 hour days. I wasn't doing a full 16, which a lot of officers do, and that's that's tough life. A lot of times it's not your option. You do your eight and sometimes you get exhausted, and I think it was a combination of a lot of things, um, but uh, yeah, a lot of stress, you know, and never had it something so severe.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I knew, and you know I, yeah, I mean, it doesn't really matter, I guess the details but I got out to the parking lot. I tried to do it discreetly, right, I could have tried to walk up and got through the main gate and maybe something happened. I could have called and asked for an ambulance. But I called and asked if maintenance would come get me in one of their gators and just take me through to Sallyport and I was going to hopefully be fine and go home and just take another couple of days. Right, I didn't want the attention, I didn't want a big deal.
Speaker 2:So I get to my truck and my heart is pounding. I, I've, I'm waiting for it to pop, explode on my chest. My head is pounding, I'm like I having a, a stroke? Am I having a heart attack? This isn't good and I pretty much knew it was either that's about to happen or a stroke. So I took a couple minutes, put the window down, try to gain my composure, whatever.
Speaker 2:And I drove maybe a block and the state police post in Jackson is right by the prison. So I thought I'm going to pull over here. My first thought is I don't want to hurt anybody in case something happens medically, and obviously I care to live. So I pull over, call my wife. I'm like, hey, I'm feeling this way, this is where I'm at. I think I need to go to the hospital. She's like I'm calling 911. So she's checking out at Dick's Sporting Goods buying something for the kids. And I felt so bad as I hear these details. You know, she's like getting this phone call but called 911, and ambulance came and got me and I just that's when, when you know I'm in the er, and she's going off for hours and just waiting, like I tell my wife I she's like, do you want me to go? I said I, I would. If I'm sorry to do this, but I just I gotta try to settle down because I couldn't help it.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, I'm looking up at the ceiling and her dad has passed, my dad has passed and I kind of made a deal with them. I'm going to make some changes in my life and it was not foreseen at all. But that's life, right, life is what happens when you're making plans. Yeah, right, life is what happens when you're making plans. Yeah and uh, honestly, it's kind of crazy. But two of the guys I used to work with in the prison. They started a little construction company. Their own stories, right, yeah, and uh, my one buddy was hounding me. Hey, come work with us a little bit. So every once in a while I'll help them build a deck or something you know and uh man.
Speaker 2:They were both in the marine corps too, two marines that both were done corrections sometimes that brotherhood doesn't die, you know. So I feel like I'm in a pretty good place right now and uh yeah you just make the most of what you're dealt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know when you have to do what you have to do to take care of yourself and your family.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's number one. Yeah, that is number one. And I felt like I I did that and I'm going to continue to do that and that's why I'm here today. I saw an episode on a local news channel and I had no idea and I thought what a great gift, right, something to give your family. Maybe someone can learn something that listens to this, maybe not. Maybe they'll think I'm an idiot, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I've lived long enough to know that some people are going to think I'm an idiot and some people yeah, and it really doesn't matter, because I feel like if you can put out some good in the world, that's my main mission, right?
Speaker 2:I mean, you can call it a sheep dog, you can call it a, a caring person, whatever, but I feel my cup is full when I help other people and yeah, so Well, that's why we do what we do. And I get it and I think it's an amazing thing and maybe, when you're ready to give this up, I'd be interested. Well, you know, I turn 60 next month so maybe we should talk.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of work going on here.
Speaker 2:I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Well, it's been great talking with you, Brad. It's been great getting to know you and really learn about your life. This is the part that I get something out of is talking with other veterans. Before we go, I've got to ask the one question, though, that I ask everyone when someone's listening to this story years from now?
Speaker 2:and you and I aren't here on this planet. What message do you want for them to take from your life? Well, I'd pray, say ultimately again, put out good in this world, and not that you'll expect it back, but surround yourself with good people and people that will push you to be your best, and I think things fall into place. Um, in general, I'd say that's how I kind of view life and what I would suggest. Uh, if you go looking for a fight or you go looking for something, you're going to find it. You look for confrontation, you look for an argument. What do you expect? Right, you know. So that's probably what I'd pass on.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, thanks for taking the time out on a Sunday to sit here and talk with me. Well, thank you, I appreciate it.
