Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
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Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
From Military Brat to Air Force Veteran: John Buremans's Journey
John Bureman's life unfolds like a vivid tapestry woven with military tradition, global adventures, personal struggles, and profound redemption. Born on a military base in England to an American Air Force father and a German war bride mother, John's earliest memories trace back to small-town Kansas before an unexpected diplomatic assignment catapulted his family to Lima, Peru during his formative teenage years.
His own 23-year Air Force journey began almost accidentally when the Navy rejected him over an honest admission about marijuana use. Across assignments spanning Texas, Okinawa, northern Maine, and Tokyo, John built a distinguished career as a dental technician while raising a family amidst constant relocation. His professional accomplishments—including designing an official unit patch that now hangs in a military museum and representing the U.S. in international snow carving competitions—paint a picture of a successful military career.
But beneath this outward success lurked a battle with alcohol that threatened everything John had built. With remarkable candor, he shares how the Air Force showed him grace when they could have easily discharged him, setting the stage for his post-military transformation. After retirement, John discovered his true calling in addiction counseling, using his personal experience to teach and guide others for nearly two decades.
The most touching aspects of John's story center around healing and connection—rebuilding his relationship with his son, developing a deep bond with his brother while writing his autobiography, and even surviving a near-fatal heart attack that occurred, remarkably, while visiting a family member in a cardiac hospital. His journey illustrates how life continually offers opportunities for growth, reconciliation, and meaningful contribution, regardless of age or past struggles.
Looking for inspiration to face your own challenges or reconnect with loved ones? John's powerful reminder to "not leave regrets out there" offers wisdom for anyone navigating life's unpredictable path. His story proves that sometimes our greatest difficulties lead to our most meaningful purpose, and it's never too late to rebuild what matters most.
Today is Wednesday, March 19th 2025. We're talking with John Bierman, who served in the United States Air Force. So good morning, John. Good morning, it's great to see you this morning.
Speaker 2:Great to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like we were talking earlier, I saw your request come through and I thought I've already talked to John Bierman, but you're John Bierman's senior then, well, no, not a senior, I'm J-O-H-N and my son, John, is J-O-N.
Speaker 2:And then our middle names are different.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, and it's funny. You say that because when we posted his story I had misspelled his name and he said hey, everything looks great, but could you put J-O-N, because it's not J-O-H-N. Now I understand why.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right? Well, let's get started then. I'm going to ask an easy question and then we'll just go from there. So, when and where were you born, John?
Speaker 2:I was born in Manchester County, South Ryslip, England, August the 19th 1953. That's the day I was born and that's the day I joined the military. Okay, so you come from a military family, I'm assuming on my dad's side of the family, where my great-grandfather was in France in World War I.
Speaker 1:My dad, active duty Air Force 23 years. Myself, my son, my brother, we're we're an air force military family all the way. That's pretty incredible Now did. Were you in England long enough to remember being there, or did you come back to the States?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was um. Actually I lived in England. Then, um, we came back to the States for a short period of time, then went to Germany. My dad went back to Germany. I understand I was told I spoke German before I spoke English, so we were there for quite a bit of time. But I have no real memories, solid memories of that time of my life. Memories solid memories of of that time of my life got some little bits and pieces that you know I I remember, um, but nothing real solid with that okay, so let's talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, let's talk about your dad. What, what are some of your memories of your dad? When you think about him, what pops into your mind?
Speaker 2:um, a very hard-working man. I don't ever recall not wanting something and not being able to have that I mean within reason. We were solid middle class, I think, and I wrote a book. Actually I know this sounds kind of weird, but yeah, I've got it right here. This is actually volume one and it's my life story. But in researching this book I learned so much about my dad and my mom that I had no idea about and it kind of made me feel bad in that why didn't I ask these things when I could have talked to them? They're both gone Right and I really regret that. And so my brother, my older brother again, air Force retired, recently deceased. I'm the last of us I like to man. There wasn't, there wasn't a lot of affection that I recall, remember, but he was certainly a loving man, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It sounds like he was there for the family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, what about your mom? Same same question. When you think about your mom, what comes to mind?
Speaker 2:mom. Same, same question. When you think about your mom, what comes to mind? Um, my mom, um was a war bride. My dad was stationed in germany. In germany shortly after the war and um met my mom there. She was, I guess, doing bus tours. She spoke English, I think she was 16 years old and they yeah, they ended up getting married. And my memories of my mom are when there was a thunderstorm she would go to the closet. I didn't know about PTSD, but that's what she had. She was there when they were firebombing the towns and spent a lot of time in cellars. And when those thunderstorms in Texas would roll through she had to go hide. And I'm so ashamed but I made fun of her for that. I didn't know.
Speaker 1:No, you were a kid.
Speaker 2:I was a kid, yeah Well, what I didn't know about my mom and what I found out with this book, was that my mom was extremely intelligent. She was well-traveled. Her dad was a trained chef and worked in New York City for many, many years at hotels when the war started. He, of course, was drafted. He cooked. He ended up serving time in a Soviet prison camp after the war. But these are things I didn't know about my mom.
Speaker 1:Right Probably formed who she was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, she was very high class. I don't know how else to say it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I didn't know that part of her.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, let's talk a little about growing up then. What are some of your memories of growing up?
Speaker 2:um, my, the, the real memories start in kansas. Um, my dad was stationed at forbes air force base and, um, you know, small town doesn't even come close to describing it, but that's you know, burlingame, kansas, is where I lived for seven years and it was such a culture shock when my dad got assigned to embassy duty in Lima, peru, got assigned to embassy duty in Lima, peru. So we moved from small-town Burlingame, kansas, to Arlington, virginia, where my dad went to this intensive language school to learn Spanish and I got dropped in the middle of a war zone. Seriously, sirens every night the school I went to, from this small town school to this huge, there were gang fights going on in the hallways and I was scared to death of that place.
Speaker 1:I can only imagine that's terrifying, and so how long were you in Peru?
Speaker 2:In Peru for three years, from, let's see, 68, 69, 70. Summer of love. I'm 16 years old in a country where you could go into any store and buy whatever you wanted. Alcohol, cigarettes didn't matter. Um, yeah, it was. It was an amazing place to come of age, no doubt about it.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a place where you grow up pretty fast.
Speaker 2:You do. You know, my parents were party, they loved to party, and this was a tight group of people, this embassy crew and they were all connected. They partied all the time and pretty much left us to our own devices, which led to my brother being involved in a kidnapping at the Peruvian International Airport and almost going to prison in Peru for God knows how long.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. So he wasn't being kidnapped, he was part of the kidnapping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a stunt that him and a bunch of surfing buddies decided they wanted to do, and they pulled it off. Sounds like the Peruvians, didn't think it was very funny. They didn't. As a matter of fact, the CIA got involved. The Kremlin got involved. It was really close to an international incident.
Speaker 1:I've been doing this for three years. I don't think I've ever talked to anyone who had family members that were almost involved in an international incident. That's pretty crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've got a hang on. Just a sec, real quick, I've got a. This is a clipping from the Stars and Stripes newspaper there in in Peru, dateline Lima. The American embassy has admitted that four Americans attached to the US diplomatic mission here were responsible for a prank that led to press denunciation of an alleged CIA kidnapping of a Brazilian diplomat. My brother was the alleged Brazilian diplomat. The embassy, in a formal statement, said the prank was perpetrated by a member of the embassy's security guard and three minor children of embassy personnel. Yeah, one of the actors was a Marine embassy guard and yeah, I'm pretty sure he got court-martialed. My brother was able to get out of the country under the cover of darkness, I guess you could say and yeah, so that all worked out Okay.
Speaker 1:Did you? Did you all end up coming back to the States shortly after that, then?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but not because of that Um the uh. There was a uh takeover of the government which happened all the time. Um, but this one, yeah, we were close to be. I guess my dad was close to ending his tour. Anyway, um, that, that prank that my brother, paul, did um keep my dad from making senior master sergeant, unfortunately. So, yeah, that's too bad. Yeah, he, he taught me very early on that my actions reflect directly on him as long as we're in the military. And, yeah, that proved to be true. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's probably not much different from being a preacher's kid or a policeman's kid. I mean, kind of all eyes are on you. So when you left Peru, where did you guys go from there?
Speaker 2:Went from there to Austin Texas, Went from there to Austin Texas, and that's where I finished high school and joined. The Air Force Wasn't my first choice. Air Force was not my first choice. The Navy was my first choice.
Speaker 1:Well, that's pretty interesting. So I'm assuming, like you moved around a lot, you probably didn't have the same group of friends every place you went, so was it like being the new guy every time?
Speaker 2:You know it was, but I mean seven years in Kansas and then from there to you know a short stay in Virginia and you know know a little bit longer stay in peru. Yeah, so it it was. I was not one to make friends, you know, because why bother, kind of thing, so I learned to entertain myself. That's pretty much. I was my best friend for a long time oh, I can understand that.
Speaker 1:So you, you come back, you graduate high school and you wanted what? So you wanted to join the navy. What tell me?
Speaker 2:tell me this story. So it's, it's again 1970, 71 ish, and I had long hair. I had kind of some, you know some semi-facial hair, and the navy at that time, uh, they were wearing bell bottoms. I wore bell bottoms. Uh, you could have facial hair, I wanted facial hair, and their hair regulations weren't, you know, real tight. So, yeah, heck, I'll do that for a couple years. It sounds like a perfect fit for a couple of years.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a perfect fit.
Speaker 2:I thought so. So again back to my brother. Now. My brother had already joined the military, he joined the Air Force, and he had told me that one of the forms that he had to fill out he had admitted to smoking marijuana, and the drill instructor, after my brother was in basic training, called him into his office and was screaming at him about smoking marijuana. And what it turned out, though, was the DI was impressed that my brother told the truth, so he made him a squad leader, and I thought wow, that's great, that's going to be my thing. Tell the truth. Thought wow, that's great, that's going to be my thing, tell the truth.
Speaker 2:So I go to the Navy recruiter, walk in and a small little office, maybe four guys in there, and I said, yeah, I'm interested in joining the Navy. The guy said great, have a seat. I said all right, got some questions for you. He said can you swim, break the ice? Yeah, I can swim. So we go through this litany of questions, and then he kind of stops and he goes, leans forward. He goes have you used drugs? And, remembering my brothers, I said yeah, I've used drugs, and suddenly the phone stopped ringing, people stopped typing. It got deadly quiet. The other folks get up, they leave the room and this guy looks at me, goes. Why did you say yes? I said because you asked me. And he goes. We can't take it, we have no waivers. He said try the Air Force, they have waivers waivers.
Speaker 1:He said try the air force, they have waivers. So that's what I did. You know, what's interesting to me is it's it's so different. Well, so I was in the military in the 80s and it's so different because the air force is the hardest branch to get into now. Um, yeah, doesn't sound like it was that way, maybe back in the 70s, but, but I guess it was a different time. It was so you go.
Speaker 2:So I go home and I tell my dad this and he's furious what do you mean? Calm down, I'll go check the Air Force people out. So yeah, I go see the Air Force recruiter Kind of the same questions and he goes OK, have you ever used drugs? And I said, yes, I have. And he goes okay, no problem, he goes, let's talk through this. He goes you haven't used any drugs except marijuana. Is that correct? Well, by this time I realized maybe total honesty isn't the best policy. I said that's right, I've never used any other drugs except marijuana. He goes okay, okay, it's good. He says now how much marijuana have you used? And again, I think I better put the brakes on this one, because really I was every day, all day. I was every day, all day. And so I said, okay, yeah, I smoked about a joint a month. And he goes okay, so last year you smoked one joint in one month. Yes, because you're in. Yeah, yeah, I'm like thank goodness for that.
Speaker 1:Well, the military had this funny thing I remember when I was a recruiter, like if you smoked marijuana once or twice, that was considered like experimental, but if you smoked it like four times or five times, they considered you like a drug user. It was really weird.
Speaker 2:It was. There was no real standard to it at all. It was all hit and miss. Um, you know, when I, on the, when I went through the enlistment process, um, I uh went into basic training in lackland. Obviously I was in texas, uh stayed at the blue bonnet hotel, which is no longer, I guess, a hotel there. But as I was, I got there a little late. So I had a room to myself, which really was great. I didn't have to share anything. But as I was kind of going through my stuff, I opened my wallet and I find this joint that I don't know how long it'd been in there. It was flat as could be, but it still contained material. So, being the smart boy that I am, I smoked it up that night. Next morning I go to Lackland to enlist and they hand me a UA cup and they go pee, oh no, yeah. Go pee, oh no, yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought this is going to be a very short-lived career, but never heard another thing so I guess, yeah, made it in, just didn't have time to hit your system, lucky you yeah, something I don't know. Lucky me is right yeah that's very true so tell me, tell me about boot camp, like. What was it like when you arrived? I mean, mean, you're a military kid, your brother was in, your dad was in. Were there any big surprises when you got there? Like something that you didn't expect.
Speaker 2:Not really. You know, when my brother went through, they were still being really rough on recruits, you know, doing stuff that today you wouldn't even think of doing. But and so even when I was, you know, went through, um, it was still a little rough. They they would throw things at you, intentionally missing you, but still throwing stuff. I had a boat thrown at me once but uh, but yeah, that kind of surprised me. I did get set back two weeks because I didn't listen, but that was a good thing. The original TI that I had he hated us because we were keeping him from going to Vietnam and killing goops. And yeah, I believed him when he said that. So yeah, it wasn't really a good place, a good fit for me. This place I got sent back to. I think I learned a lot from this guy, from this TR.
Speaker 1:Well, it's good Like everything happens for a reason, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah, yeah, so how long everything happens for a reason, right, exactly, yeah, yep, yeah, so you're.
Speaker 1:How long was basic for the air force back then? You remember it's like was it eight weeks, I think.
Speaker 2:Well for me eight weeks plus two, Right.
Speaker 1:You were on the extended program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So where did you go from there, went yeah.
Speaker 2:So where did you go from there? Went right back to Bergstrom. Uh, that's where my dad retired from was Bergstrom, and that's um. That's where I went back to seven years.
Speaker 1:I'm curious. You know I went so when I went to basic training there were some guys whose dad fathers had been. I was in the Navy to begin with um, their dads had been in the Navy and it's like everywhere they went people knew their fathers and so they had. They actually had a hard time in basic training because you know they got extra attention. Did you run into that at all with people who knew your dad?
Speaker 2:No, there was no legacy treatment. Yeah no, there was none of that.
Speaker 1:Consider yourself lucky.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay. So, uh, what was your?
Speaker 2:what was your job in the air force? Oh yeah I. I had no clue what my job was going to be. I went in, had no guaranteed job and ended up being a 98130, which is a dental technician. Really, don't ask me, I have no idea. Yeah, and there was no tech school. We went through a program called Medical Fundamentals, or MedFunnies, we called it, and that was basically training us to be second-national on medics in case of a battle and, yeah, nothing to do with dental at all. It was all on the job training.
Speaker 1:So you didn't clean any teeth or any of that stuff.
Speaker 2:I did it all.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, once I got there, you know, you start out sitting doing chair sides, assisting the dentist and learning as you go. Yeah, it was, it was quite the ride.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds kind of cool and scary all at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was good, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:And then so, when you finished up your school, where to from there?
Speaker 2:Well, so again seven years at Bergstrom and in that time I learned all about chairside dental assisting and um x taking x-rays, cleanings, administration, you know the whole thing. After that went to uh okinawa, japan, for three years and that was a great assignment, loved it Really good place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's in um. So you were you, you were, you were married at some point in all of this. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, I got married there.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah. So um met my uh high school sweetheart, sandy, and her dad was also military and so I met her there in Austin, at Bergstrom. He ended up getting assigned to Florida trying to run Fort Walton Beach, macdill maybe, air Force Base, florida. So there was a period of separation. They ended up coming back and we ended up getting married. We were married just a few months before I joined the Air Force. So you know, that was the only period of time in my life, the period of time from when I graduated high school, which was, I think, may of 72. And when I joined the military, which was August. That was the only time in my life I did not have an ID card, the only time in my entire life.
Speaker 1:That's funny and you know, if you like, when you're, when you're in it, when you always have an id card and all that stuff. It's not a, it doesn't seem like anything, but I think there's like those gaps where you're like oh wait, a minute, something's missing here yeah, yeah, well, you know it's.
Speaker 2:It's kind of weird. Um, so that period of time where I had no ID card, they were opening the IRS was opening a branch in Austin it was going to be their southern regional branch and they were computerizing this place for the first time ever, irs was going to start using computers and they put out ads in newspapers and stuff. And the cool thing was they didn't want anybody with any computer experience. If you had computer experience, they didn't want to talk to you. You had to have zero experience.
Speaker 2:Well, here I am. I actually got hired. Oh, I was hired, I I today, I kind of think, imagine where would I be today. I would have been on the ground floor of computerizing this, this place in austin, which was cutting edge, you know. But yeah, so I got hired, I I went back to the place I worked as uh called the run-in chef, which was like a little grill, and told my boss and, um, yeah, I was set. And then a week later I get get a call from the HR department. They said Mr Berman, we're so sorry, we had a veteran apply also and we didn't realize that he was a veteran. And now that we know he is a veteran, we have to give him preference, so you're not hired after all.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a bummer.
Speaker 2:Like you said, things happen for a reason. That's true, that's true.
Speaker 1:That's true. And if the government holds true, you'd still be working on the same computer systems today. That's right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anyway, looking around for Elon to come tap me on the shoulder and say you're out of here.
Speaker 1:Something like that. Right yeah, so then you're like, well, I'm joining the military.
Speaker 2:Then exactly, yeah, that's exactly why I did it um, and you know, it, it's been, it's been amazing um are. Both are my. My son and my daughter were both born um in austin um. They were with us when we went to Okinawa and spent three years there. So yeah, bergstrom was a great assignment. I loved it. Now it's an international airport, but yeah, I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:It's funny how that stuff happens. I went to basic training in the Navy in San Diego. Now that's a subdivision.
Speaker 2:There's a subdivision there, not sub there's. There's a subdivision there, not sub underwater. No, yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 1:I took my daughter there one time and I was like, oh, this is where I went to. Oh, wait a minute, it's not even here anymore. So yeah, so you go to Japan. Um, how was Japan? How was Okinawa?
Speaker 2:It, I mean culture shock. Obviously that was our first, you know, trip overseas, but it was a fun assignment. Very small island. You know I started learning and appreciating a lot of World War II history when I got there. I've always been kind of a history buff anyway. But, um, to appreciate what happened on that island, you know, with the us taking taking control, is just mind-boggling. There's, there's areas of that island you still can't go to because of all the unexploded ordnance. There's no tall trees on the island. They, they were all leveled. It's kind of an interesting thing to realize that there's no tall trees here and they're always digging up bombs. They're, you know, doing construction and suddenly there's an unexploded 500 pound bomb. You know you got to clear everything out. But yeah it was.
Speaker 2:It was a good assignment. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. And then you uh's great. And then where did you go after that?
Speaker 2:From there we went to Loring Air Force Base, maine, the very northern tip of Maine. My first experience with the Strategic Air Command. It's a SAC base. Spent seven years there to SAC base. Spent seven years there and I truly believe that was the pinnacle of my career, even though I still had a lot of career left. That time that I spent there, I think, was the best time that I've had socially, militarily, you know everything.
Speaker 1:It just was the perfect fit, I think, for our family everything's just clicking, and then you got about 10 years in at that time, right uh, so seven, yeah, about 10 years yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Those memories are great, though, when you think back, like when I think back on my career, there are times that I remember that I'm like oh, yeah like if I could do that again, I would Cause it was amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it was the perfect place for a family. There was a saying that they had 40 below keeps the riffraff out, and it's true. I mean it was a very, very, very small town Again, small town. The base was was it tight community? Yeah, I just love that assignment. I actually had a really neat experience. We were the when I, when I arrived, the hospital designation was 42nd Strategic Hospital. No, it was USAF Hospital, loring Air Force Base, maine. That was our designation and something happened. Reorganization happened, so we now became 42nd Strategic Hospital and because of that we needed a new unit patch and I actually designed and the. The patch was accepted and is now a part of air force history.
Speaker 2:So that was that was really cool how cool, yeah, how cool is that like it, yeah it, um, it was so amazing just to have that experience, to do the research. Um, you know, instead of a shield it's now a circle. Why, you know, you have to do all that. The colors have to matter, uh, it all has to make sense and I was like, suddenly everybody's wearing my patch.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was so, so, so amazing what a legacy yeah that is very cool my daughter and her husband, who's also retired military um air force. They went back to maine um, loring is now a I don't don't know. It's a big civilian complex up there, but they went just to visit. Amy has really great memories. My daughter, amy, and my son John both have great memories of being in Maine. So they went back and there's a little museum set up for Luring and all the stuff that was part of luring and they actually found my patch there in the museum. So that was really cool.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, yeah. I don't know many people that can say, hey, you can go to this museum. And here's something that I actually designed that hundreds of people wore for for years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was really cool.
Speaker 1:So when you left Maine, where did you where? Yeah, yeah, it was really cool. So when you left Maine, where did you? Where did you go from there? And your kids are how like early teens by this time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're getting close to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that was yeah, that was great. Um, and I'm getting an assignment to um Yukota air base, Japan, another, uh, japan tour, japan, another Japan tour, but this on the main island, I guess you'd call it. And at that time, so prior to that, all the PCS moves permanent change of stations. We've all gone together, this one. That wasn't going to happen. There wasn't housing available yet for the family, so I went ahead of them. I think it was probably five, six months, maybe that I was there before they were able to join me. So they stayed there in Austin with my parents, my wife's parents, sandy, her parents and I went ahead, got got things set up and they were able to finally join me after a while. That was. That was a long wait, it was a long wait.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean in the big you know the bigger scheme of things, six, seven months doesn't seem that long, but when you're away from your family that's a long time it is a very long time yeah yep yeah, so they joined you there. How was that tour?
Speaker 2:the that tour was was it was good again. Um, going from this small place loring to this giant place tokyo, uh, you think you're you're done with kind of culture shocks, but yeah, I don't think you ever get used to it, but yeah it, it was a, it was a great assignment. I really enjoyed that. We we went a lot of places. Um, I was um in, I interviewed for and was selected to be a member of the United States snow carving team. Each year in Sapporo, japan, which is Hokkaido, which is the island north of where we were, they have the annual Sapporo Snow Festival and they have a snow carving competition. It's international and, yeah, I was on that team for three years. That was that was really amazing.
Speaker 2:The first year I carved was the first year after the Berlin Wall had gone down. So the Russians prior to this they came with handlers. They weren't allowed to mingle with the other teams. They weren't allowed to, you know, other than official stuff. They kept to themselves. Well, this year they came by themselves and they had the best time. The USA team, the Russian team together for the first time. It was. It was so much fun. Yeah, it was great stuff.
Speaker 1:Isn't it cool. When you get to know people who I don't know, we think of them as enemies during that time, but when you really get to know them. It's like, it's different, Like you find out that they're people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and and it was so much fun because we partied with them one night, um, it was, it was. It was crazy because they spoke russian, we spoke english, they didn't speak english, we didn't speak Russian, but we had a guy on our team that spoke German and they had a guy on their team that spoke German, so it would go from English to German, then from German to Russian, and then back around again. It was crazy, it was just crazy.
Speaker 1:I feel like military people, more than other folks, always find a way to make it work. You're right, you know what I mean. Like a lot of people have gone, oh, we just can't communicate. But you guys are like, wait a minute, he speaks German. He speaks German. We're going to make this thing work.
Speaker 2:We made it work. Yeah, it was crazy. People were, you know, they love seeing us together and pictures. Yeah, it was. I was surprised it didn't make international news. I think we, I think we found world peace. I don't remember for sure, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, you guys discovered detente before. It was cool, that's right, yeah, yeah. So how long were you in Japan for?
Speaker 2:Um, Another seven years seems to be the magic number. All right.
Speaker 1:And then, just because I have insider information, because I did interview the other, john Bierman yeah, this is where John joined the military from correct, when you were in Japan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that was a rough one. Yeah, that was a rough one. Yeah, he graduated high school and he started coming home later and later spending time in places he probably shouldn't spend time, you know? Again, we're talking about Japan, where you can buy anything that you can imagine from a vending machine, including alcohol. You're just dropping the money, you get this big keg of Sapporo beer.
Speaker 2:So I guess, it got to the point where I said you got to do something. Either you're going to go to school, you're going to go to work, or you're going to join the military. So he chose military. Yeah, but remember taking him to the airport and watching him go down the escalator and that little baseball hat he wore all the time and I couldn't see him anymore after that and man, yeah, I lost it. I just sobbed.
Speaker 1:Our kids are always our kids, John.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know.
Speaker 1:Like I always picture my son and his mutant Ninja Turtles bike and I picture my daughter. You know I don't picture them at the age they are now, because they're all grown out of the house and very successful. But yeah, like you still picture them like wearing a little baseball hat going down the escalator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the hit song that year was I Will Always Love you. Yeah, and that come on the radio and both me and my wife, you know my dad told me something. You know you'd ask me things. I remember about my dad. One thing I remember my dad saying to me, never forgot it we had got back from Okinawa and we're visiting and I asked my dad.
Speaker 2:I said dad, what's it like when your kids leave? He looked at me and he goes John, your kids never leave. And I didn't. I said oh, yeah, whatever, yeah, whatever, yeah. You know what? I got my daughter and her family 30 miles. My son is, you know, 30 miles from me. Kids never leave, they don't they don't my.
Speaker 1:My son lives in alabama and I live in michigan and we talk. We talk probably two or three times a day, as if he was right here.
Speaker 2:Wow See, yep Solana, that's where my wife was born, yeah, and her family is all from Alabama. Oh side of the families you know solve this connection.
Speaker 1:Small world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. You know something that that I did experience there when I was in Yokota, that I again that this is the pinnacle point in my career. I think we had noncommissioned officer of the quarter board, which you would go, and in your dress uniform they would ask you questions, and senior NCOs and if you impress them enough you would win. But the award for this and I did win was I got to go to Iwo Jima and that was the most humbling. I mean. I still well up a little bit when I think about that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, but the, the, the coast guard had a little air station there and, um, so they would do a milk run, take a c-130 with you know, whatever they needed to bring, go to ujima, spend the day there, and they have a historian. They, um, the coast guard would train, would not train, but they, they have a historian, the Coast Guard would train. Well, not train, but they would have a person who would come take over as the historian. They would get all the knowledge of the island and this kind of thing, and then it would provide tours. So I got to stand on top of Suribachi and look down at the invasion beach. They called it the black, beautiful black sand beach, where the Marines came on shore and I mean talk about standing on hollow ground. It was just phenomenal and was able to bring back a piece of Sarabachi with me, a treasure, that piece of rock.
Speaker 1:What an amazing honor that is to be able to do that, yeah, as a service member, to stand where those who came before us stood and, you know, saved the world. As far as I'm concerned, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:they have, um, they they built a crematorium there on the island and it's very ceremonial. Once a year a group of archaeologists and historians and other folks will come from Japan there to Iwo Jima and they're still searching caves in Sarabachi. They're still searching caves in Sarabachi and when they find remains they will, you know, archaeologically document everything. If they're able to return items to families, they will. Any remains that are found will be cremated and they have this sluice gate that runs down through these torii gates out into the ocean. And just mind-boggling that you know that they're still finding and they probably will for a long time oh yeah, I can imagine the thing that.
Speaker 1:The thing that sticks in my mind about that particular part of the war was the amount of respect that you see between the Japanese and the American military, like the. You see it a lot when these guys meet up after having fought each other, you know years, and they just have so much respect for each other. It's, it's different yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, that to be able to, to have that that physical connection by being there, um just uh, something I will never, never forget not just forget, but the feeling. I can recall that feeling of standing there and I can see the other end of the island. When we take off, when we leave and that was a ride, that's an E-ticket in Disneyland that C-130 hits the end of that runway, there's nothing but a sheer drop into the ocean. So you get a little bit of a and then up, up you go. So yeah, that was that was cool, but I, I think that that was, you know, um, I'll need to stop because I'll keep talking about oh, no, no, that's, that's all right, that's all right.
Speaker 1:So seven years there and then, um, you know, it sounds like again like things are going really great for you, and and so where, where do you go from there?
Speaker 2:from there went to here, which is uh tinker air force base, um. Just spent a very short time here, um, and decided 23 years, the good run. I'm going to step out. So yeah, put in my papers and retired.
Speaker 1:Tell me about that last time you put the uniform on.
Speaker 2:Well, that would have been about a week ago, actually. I pulled it out of the closet, and I'll be damned if I wasn't able, with a little bit of push, to get that coat up enough you know, but yeah, it was, um, it was, it was humbling, um, you know, their force treated me very, very well and so, yeah, it was humbling.
Speaker 2:What's funny was I remember after, or actually maybe even shortly before, telling my wife that I'm going to have to get some civilian clothes. You know, I got to go to work, so we went to JCPenney and I said I'm going to go to the men's, she's going to do her thing, we finally get done. And I go wheeling up to the register and she looks in my basket. She goes, look in there and I look in there and said, yeah, look, look. I said what? Just, everything's a shade of blue. It was everything Darker color for the pants, of course, lighter color for the shirt, but damn, everything was a shade of blue.
Speaker 1:You've been conditioned.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, yeah, yeah, that was great stuff. I learned though that oh my God, yeah, yeah, that was great stuff. So I learned though that, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Oh, keep talking.
Speaker 2:I learned, though, very quickly that a career in dental does not translate to the civilian world. Unfortunately, that was a rude awakening, yeah and so, yeah, I figured no, I'm not going to be a dental assistant. I knew that.
Speaker 2:There was no dentist that's going to want to bump knees with a guy. I mean, you just don't. You get a female dental assistant. But I knew enough that I could manage. There was a time when I was managing an 18-chair dental clinic with all the specialties so I figured I can run a dental operation no problem. So I started applying for office manager positions and I remember specifically one interview I went to. I had my little briefcase, my suit, and the receptionist asked can I help you? And I said yeah, I'm here to interview for the office manager.
Speaker 2:And she laughed and she goes ah, you're a farm rep or something. You know pharmacy, I'm really. That's why I'm here. So she goes to the back and I hear this talking going on and so these two ladies come out and they bring me back to this, brought like a break room, and there's a table with a pad of paper on it and the ladies go we're going to go get a couple of chairs. So they go out and I looked down at the pad and it says questions to ask for interview and the first question says ask her why she left her last job so I screwed that all up for him yeah, yeah, I just kind of turned the paper back around and, um, yeah, it did, it didn't go well.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that was um. I actually uh interviewed for one place it was a hospital in Shawnee, oklahoma, which is about 30 miles from where I live and that one went like all the way. I mean, these people were so excited about me, like you're the top of our list, because they were checking in. I was checking in and then all of a sudden the check-in stopped. No return calls, no, nothing, and I get a letter saying we're sorry, but you know, we found somebody more qualified than you.
Speaker 2:So yeah again, everything happens for a reason, Right, yeah, and ended up going to work for a small dental supply company. I was a good fit for that. And then I interviewed for working as a receptionist at this real estate agency in Oklahoma City and a very large, well-known real estate agency and the lady that owns this agency talked to me on the phone and went after she hired me. She said the reason I hired you she goes. I would have never thought to hire a man. Never entered my mind. She goes. But I love your voice. You have a good phone voice. I never knew.
Speaker 2:So I went to work for this place. I never realized how bad the real estate world is. So again, big agency.
Speaker 2:My training consisted of if anybody walks in and tries to hand you an envelope, you do not take it because they're being served for something they're always being served. That was rule number one. Rule number two is we don't take section eight. We just don't do it. And yeah, if somebody happened to walk in and they were Section 8, you could hear crickets chirping, there were tumbleweeds rolling through the office. You let somebody else come in and it was like sharks, you know, and chum, it was terrible. But yeah, if you were low income, just go away.
Speaker 2:You know it was, yeah, but I mean I had to make money. I mean I needed money, I had my retirement pay, but that's not going to do it. And then one day I'm going to lunch and this song comes on the radio and it's a song by Boston and I hate Boston, I don't like them. So I just hit the seek button. The very next station it stops on is an advertisement for an addiction counselor program, degree program at Oklahoma State University in Oklahoma City. I think I did a U-turn on a busy intersection, drove to the school, walked into the bursar's office, took out my credit card and paid for an entire semester of school. I wanted that degree and that's when I learned about the GI Bill and the GI Bill will pay me to go to school. So, yeah, I continued working for this dental supply company with a real estate place yeah, a bunch of yahoos Anyway. And I was the seventh group of students to go through this degree program and got a degree in addictions counseling, became certified and went to work.
Speaker 1:Why addiction counseling?
Speaker 2:Well, you know I said the Air Force has been very, very good to me. They were good to me. They were by all rights and privileges. They could have discharged me with no pay, no privileges, nothing. I had a pretty significant problem with alcohol during my 23 years in the military and did some really stupid stuff. And yeah, they, they, like I said they had every right under the UCMJ, every legal right, every moral, every ethical right to say see ya, you had your one chance. You blew it, because that was pretty much the process. Is drugs? No, there was no tolerance. If you got busted for drugs, they'll put you through a program, but after that you're gone. With alcohol they'll put you through a program and then they'll let you go back to work, but if you do it again you're gone. And I did it again, but they allowed me to retire with owner.
Speaker 1:So you know, I just want to. I like the way this conversation is unfolded, because it's when you juxtapose your career, where, from the outside, everything seems to be amazing. I mean you, you had great assignments, you were, you excelled, you did wonderful things but underneath that is this addiction to alcohol. That's that's tormenting you the whole time and that's got to be, that's that's tormenting you the whole time and that's gotta be, that's gotta be tough. It yeah it, it is.
Speaker 2:Um, but then it's not because you know, in in my addiction um, I was able to, I was able to perform, obviously, was able to perform obviously Three Meritorious Service Medals, three yeah, that is almost unheard of Two from the same assignment flooring, you know the pinnacle.
Speaker 2:And then one upon retirement, retirement. So you know, I, um, I, I had a lot of, I built up a lot of credibility, I guess. I mean I'm a likable guy, I'm, I'm, I'm funny, you know, uh, but, um, so I had, I had a lot of people that had faith in me and I did the right things when I should have done the right things. That kept me on course. But Again, it's I. If I try to think about, if I were on the other side of that table and somebody put my file in front of me and said, what should we do with this person? I'm ashamed to say I'd say, hey, just go. He was given his chance and that actually happened with me. There was I don't know who it was, it was a civilian, I don't know anything more than that that said, we need to just, yeah, get him out of here. You know, dishonorable discharge, but everything happens for a reason. The dental, my commander, my dental, a base dental surgeon I'd been stationed with before he knew me and he said, hell no, this man's retiring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. So do you think that that the kind of the breaks that you've been given, does that help you show grace to the people that you counsel?
Speaker 2:do you know what I mean? Like, oh my gosh. Yes, like you can, you can understand.
Speaker 1:Not only, not only can you call them out on their BS because you've done it right.
Speaker 2:But you can also understand.
Speaker 1:There's like this understanding and also this accountability which, unless you've been through it, I don't think you have necessarily the ability to really understand that.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, yes, you can really, because you have to separate the addiction from the behaviors or the feelings. Somebody once said that addiction is the only disease you can have where people will yell at you for having it. You know, and there's some validity to that, but I may not be able to identify with a particular addiction, but I can 100% identify with the feelings associated with it, and that's what people have to understand, is you know? There's that thought that well, if you haven't done it, then you can't know. Yeah, but so I said, well, tell me what you're feeling. When that happened, I'm feeling afraid. I felt fear. I can identify with fear. Let's talk about the fear, move away from the object and let's look at what's in here right, which allows you to kind of get to the underlying causes.
Speaker 1:Right exactly, yeah, yeah so how long have you, how long have you been sober?
Speaker 2:I got sober in 1995 okay yep, been sober then since then. And yeah, you know the Air Force really and I'm not blaming the Air Force, but glamorized alcohol, I mean that commander's call, that's the time to drink. You know everybody gets together and you drink Dining in. You know it's all about the grog bowl and the alcohol.
Speaker 1:You're almost forced to drink at a dining in.
Speaker 2:Exactly Because I'm a non-drinker, grog bowl and the alcohol and you're almost forced to drink at a dining in exactly because I'm.
Speaker 1:You know you're right I'm a non-drinker, I don't drink at all and not, not, not because I'm alcoholic, I just don't like to drink. And I remember thank you. But I remember going to these events and feeling a little bit ostracized because I don't drink and I refused to. And you know, like I was in the, I was in the um field artillery for a little while in the army, and they have a big event where it's all about getting drunk and I'm like, well, I want to be one of the guys because I love these people but I'm not drinking. People look at you cross-eyed if you don't drink with them. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I get it Like it almost encouraged. It's like when they put cigarettes in the rations for the World War II guys and everyone started smoking. Right yeah same thing.
Speaker 2:Anyway, you're probably better off in that situation to tell them hey, I can't drink, man, I'm an alcoholic, and oh man, now you're part of the group, you know. But yeah, just to say I don't drink. Yeah, that's very true. It was encouraged, it was glamorized in a sense and yeah, it was perfect for me. That's what I'll do. I'll just drink, I did.
Speaker 1:Did it very well.
Speaker 2:You're going to do something, be good at it. Yeah, yeah, you know it's. So. Yeah, I got sober and and then started the addiction counseling, ended up actually teaching at Oklahoma State University. At Oklahoma State University, the person that was teaching the program that when I went through, lisa Dillon. She is now the director. So she told me, once I get my degree, then let her know and she'll start me teaching. So I taught for almost 20 years.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, that's pretty amazing years.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow, that's pretty amazing. Yeah, loved it. Loved teaching. That's really where my heart was at, training and teaching. Yeah, I went to work for the state of Oklahoma and um over I was. My job there was to oversee all the uh DUI programs that the state has, all the assessments that they do and the trainings that they do. So, yeah, I got to travel all over oklahoma. That was that was fun. Yeah, and that was fun.
Speaker 1:I really enjoyed that it kind of from one amazing career to another, even more amazing career, almost I love.
Speaker 2:yeah, it was. It was great because I got again, got to do all the trainings and you know, visiting folks driving around, and then COVID happened and that was okay. I love COVID.
Speaker 1:How many stinking stories to start out with. And then COVID happened. You know how many times we got to say that. I know, yeah, so are you still doing counseling then, or are you?
Speaker 2:like a retired retired I am yeah, I'm 100 retired now. I, um, I spend my time painting and drawing and, uh, I have now a great grandson named Leo, who lives in Maryland. So, yeah, that's going to be a focus for me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, my granddaughter comes to visit from Alabama. You know, you probably know this, but like she'll come up here and we'll spend a couple of days with her and you almost have to, like, take a week to recover. You have so much energy.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, yeah, it's well. You know, when I went I visited him, my son and I went and he's going on two years old, just an amazing kid, but he had this little wooden dinosaur T-Rex that he gave me dinosaur T-Rex that he gave me, and it just endeared him to me so much that I don't know if you can see it, but I got a tattoo of it. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it's upside down, but it is my only tattoo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going on. Let's see, I'm going on, 72 years old and my one and only tattoo. I've found this guy that does the hyper-realistic you know looks like he can pick it up, and I told him that's what I want and that's what he gave me and I love it.
Speaker 1:That's very's, very, very cool. I always, I always tell people like me a tattoo don't buy, don't get drunk and go buy something off the wall. It should count, it should matter.
Speaker 2:You should really think about it you know, and and this is so cool because, um, when people see it, they will comment on it, and they're now. Let me tell you about Leo, let me tell you about my great grandson, you know, and people start tearing up, you know. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, the guy that did it said man, you're the oldest guy I've ever tattooed, so that was quite the owner.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's, that's. Yeah, they should put you on the wall for that one.
Speaker 2:I should be, should be on something, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, you know something we didn't talk about. Um, and I'm going to ask if you don't want to, did you and Sandy stay together? It seems like you were together the whole time.
Speaker 2:Um, not, not anymore. Um, the February the 25th was our 53rd wedding anniversary and we are in the process of getting a divorce at this time.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry to hear that.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:But 53 years is quite a run.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my attorney has told me that I'm the oldest divorce client he's ever had, so I'm setting all sorts of records but not all of them are the ones that are that great. Yeah, you know, I hope that when it's all said and done, we can you know still, you know, I mean we're still in the same house. So you know, it's not a, it's not a battle zone by any means but, um, yeah, I told my daughter.
Speaker 2:I said you know this could be one of those stories where, like, I start dating her again and you know, we fall in love again and get married again. She told me shut up one step at a time. Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, but you never know, like we don't know.
Speaker 2:We don't. You know and and that's kind of what I've become to, to, to learn through this process you know, like this book, um, it's a, it's a program where you know they'll publish it for you. I mean it's a it's a program where you know they'll publish it for you. I mean it's not published, but you, you do whatever you want. I, I've got my all my drawings, I've scanned and are in this book, all the poems I've written are in this book. And then I start my life story, um, and I've, I've got it like you're watching a program, like, uh, like I have the pilot episode. That's where my mom and dad meet, yeah, you know. Then season one is where I'm born and you know season two, you know. So I kind of have it set out like in that kind of um way, but, um, there's so much about my family.
Speaker 2:I had no, no idea, no idea. And all this information was kind of scattered around. I mean, there was my younger sister, she passed away, me, and then my older brother. He's gone. That's why I say I'm the last of us. My mom and dad are gone, right, but before my brother had passed away, I started asking him because I was in the process of doing this book. So I was asking him questions about hey, what did you do this and when were you this? And so he texted back and he goes what are you writing my obituary? I said no, I'm writing a book. And I sent him some of the stuff I had done and he goes can I be your editor? Proofreader? So I should, I guess, explain a little bit about our relationship as siblings. My sister and I younger sister were very close. My brother, no, he was the athlete of the family, he was the go-getter, he was the one making the great grades.
Speaker 2:So he kind of was off with his buddies. It was me and my sister and that's the way our life had been. Either he was out moving in the military or I was moving in the military or I was. So we were never together really as siblings and we were okay with that. Our communication consisted of an occasional phone call and a Christmas card. That was it, but again, that's all we knew. Once this book happened, my relationship with my brother was, I mean, it's like we'd known each other all our lives, but we have never talked so much, communicated so much about really deep stuff, heartfelt stuff, um, it's all right, john I.
Speaker 1:I lost my brother last year and it's very similar situation. We didn't know each other and then all of a sudden, we reconnected yeah, that's what it was, you know.
Speaker 2:But anyway, through that um, it was amazing how much we connected and grew um what a blessing to get to know him yeah, yeah, I have to really um try hard to put the regrets you know I wish I would have you know put those away and just be very thankful, yeah, for what I had you in um, you can't fix all that other stuff, it's not fixable but, man, what a, what a, what a great thing that you again, you decided to write this book, and a side benefit was you got to know your brother.
Speaker 2:Exactly, you know it. It just everything just keeps like clicking. I guess you know my you know my son and I. Our relationship was I mean, I wouldn't even call it a relationship, you know. I mean you know as you talk to him and you know. Again, that's why I didn't want to hear his podcast, because I didn't want to set myself up you know I want to tell my story and how that all fits.
Speaker 2:but, um, you know, I when, when he was in his throes with alcohol, um again, we were like footsteps. We were following those same paths, different events but the same things Almost lost him. He came very close to dying and came back here, came here and now I have a son. I haven't had a son since he went down that elevator escalator at narita yeah, now you got him back.
Speaker 1:I want to. I want to ask a question. Sure, that goes all the way back to the escalator, and that is you saw him going down this path and you you said, look, get a job, go to school, join the military. Was there a? Was part of that because you were drinking and you didn't want him to to do the same things that you were doing, or you just needed him to to do something with his life? I just curious, like, what did your, did your alcohol use impact, you not wanting him to do that as well?
Speaker 2:no, no, it was. It was. Do you need to do something with your life? Yeah, um, I mean he was. He was going to the mean streets of to and I was concerned for his safety. I know there's probably things he's never told me that he's done, but that's okay. I knew enough that. I knew you got to get stable here and do something. So, yeah, he chose the military. Okay.
Speaker 1:Good on you, yeah, yeah, all right, just a, just a good question that I had in my, in my head as we went through this conversation. So I mean, really, it sounds like like your whole life, like everything has happened for a reason you know. Um, the book, reconnecting with your son, um, it sounds like family is very important to you. Uh, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to talk about?
Speaker 2:wow, um, you know what? Okinawa oh yeah, there's something happened. So it was 2014, and my brother-in-law, sandy's brother, and his wife live in Clinton, oklahoma, which is about 90 minutes west of where we're at, and they have family in Dallas. So his name's Frankie, and Frankie and Cheryl went to Dallas to visit his family their family and while there he suffered a heart attack and it was a really bad heart attack. He had so many clogged arteries and stuff that they couldn't do anything at the moment as far as surgically. So they decided they were going to put a pacemaker in and start dealing with stuff. As that happened, so he was at Baylor Heart Hospital, one of the premier cardiac hospitals probably in the world, and my wife and I went to to visit him in the hospital.
Speaker 2:Now, typically I wouldn't. I wouldn't go with Sandy when she would go to visit family in Dallas. I didn't feel like I really fit. They liked a lot of sports I'm not a big sports guy, anyway so typically they would go. But in this instance I said, well, I'm going, of course, frankie's in the hospital pacemaker. So we go and, um, the day of the operation, we're in the hospital room with him talking and, um, I started having this bout to heartburn. I'm like so sandy had some relays which I took, didn't help. Um, things started getting worse. Um, you probably can kind of imagine where this might be going. But so after about I don't know, maybe a couple hours, I'm starting to get, you know, short of breath, sweating.
Speaker 2:Now this is the time of Ebola, so you can't just walk into an emergency room Now at a heart hospital emergency room right there in front of me. You can't walk in. You got to pick up the red phone. Seriously, red phone, military. You don't pick up a red phone unless you're going to launch a missile. I finally picked it up. How can I help you? I said, yeah, I'm experiencing this. So I've ever been to West Africa, been in contact with anybody with Ebola.
Speaker 2:Finally they buzzed me in and I explained my symptoms. Again, they get me on the gurney, they hook up the EKG and the doctor's looking at it. He's like I'm not sure there's this, might be something gallbladder maybe. So he leaves and another doctor comes back. He's got the EKG strip, he looks at it, he looks at me and he says what are your symptoms? I said, once again, you know, and he looks, he goes, you're having a heart attack and my wife's at the foot of the bed filling out insurance paperwork. She goes. Who's having a heart attack? He goes, he's having a heart attack.
Speaker 2:Next thing I know I am stripped naked. They are shaving every I mean. There's hair flying everywhere and I'm on my way to the cath lab and when I came back down after all, the stent was put in. The doctor, you know, is asking him so tell me, but give me the timeline. So I give him the timeline. He says you had about two minutes to live. He said we wouldn't have got you back because it was the widow, maker of all things, and it was a blood clot, had popped loose, lodged in there. Had I not been been there, I wouldn't be here. Um, yeah, so everything happens for a reason. I I told my brother-in-law um, um, I, it's, it's one of my chapters in the book. It's, it's called serious as a heart attack, because I can actually say that now you know if you haven't had one you can't say that, right, but you know, I actually thank my brother-in-law for saving my life because had he not had is yeah.
Speaker 1:Crazy that is. That is something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, yeah, um, but I think that's it for my notes.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I mean, we've had quite a good conversation. It's been almost well, almost an hour and a half. You can believe that well, that's gone fast it? Yeah, usually does so. Um, you know we'll. We'll wrap up our conversation, but there's one question that I want to ask and, um, I ask everyone the same question before we go and that is if someone's listening to this story years from now, what, what message do you want to leave? What do you want them to take away from your life and this conversation?
Speaker 2:Wow. I think the main thing is that don't leave regrets out there. If there's something that you wish you would have done, do it. Don't have questions in your mind about you know, family, ask, you know, learn, and don't wait till the very end because it may be too late. Wait till the very end because it may be too late. Uh, I had the, the, the blessings of having my brother there at the, at the, at the last, to to help me through a lot of this and to give me the things that I needed to to know about him and about me, and um, the last thing I said to him was I love you, and his service that he had was at a Buddhist temple. His wife is from Thailand and I remember telling that story and looking at one of the monks and he's like yeah don't leave regrets, don't leave things unsaid.
Speaker 1:Wow, all right. Well, thanks, john, for taking the time out today to talk with us. It's been great to get to know you and, um, you know, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:You're welcome.
