Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
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Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
Joe Spackman's transformation from Army cryptographer to pastoral leader reveals the power of second chances.
Joe Spackman's life reads like a novel spanning the Cold War to the pulpit, with unexpected twists that reveal how our darkest chapters can become our greatest ministry tools.
Born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1948 and raised in Lansing, Michigan, Joe's journey took a pivotal turn when his poor college grades resulted in a draft notice during Vietnam. Enlisting for an extra year to choose his training, he selected "fixed siphony repair" solely because it was the longest program available – unwittingly stepping into the world of secure voice communications with a clearance level reportedly higher than the president's.
Stationed in Berlin at the former Liebstandard Adolf Hitler barracks, Joe found himself at a surreal crossroads. Having previously embraced neo-Nazism and occult practices after being rejected when expressing interest in ministry as a teenager, he now stood 110 miles behind what would be enemy lines if hostilities erupted. Military police had clear instructions: ensure personnel like Joe destroyed sensitive equipment and, if necessary, shoot them rather than allow capture – a sobering reality that forced him to reevaluate his worldview.
After military service, Joe reconnected with Nona, whom he'd met at Lansing Community College. Their relationship blossomed into a 53-year marriage that began at Christ United Methodist Church. By 1974, both experienced profound spiritual conversion during a lay witness mission, igniting Joe's second calling to ministry – one that would be affirmed rather than rejected. His theological journey led him through seminary and a transformative year at Wesley's Chapel in London before serving multiple Michigan churches as a circuit pastor.
Perhaps most powerful is how Joe leveraged his journey through darkness to connect authentically with others struggling in similar spaces. When confronted by a troubled goth teenager claiming to be Satan, Joe replied simply, "I've seen Satan and you're not him, but you're always welcome here" – words that helped transform her life and exemplify his core belief that no one is "too bad, lost, or not grown up enough to change."
What unexpected chapters of your own story might become the foundation for helping others find their way?
Good morning. Today is April 7th, 2025. We're talking with Joe Spackman, who served in the United States Army. So good morning, joe. Good morning, it's great to see you here. Nice to be here, yes, and we're glad that you made it, even though I gave you the wrong address.
Speaker 2:No, you gave me the right address. It's just Miss Google gave me misdirection.
Speaker 1:Yeah well that's Google for you, right? Well, we'll start out real simple. When and where were you born?
Speaker 2:I was born in Norfolk.
Speaker 1:Virginia in 1948, January of 1948.
Speaker 2:Okay, and did you live in Norfolk most of your life or did you move around? How'd that work out? No, actually, my father was a baker a civilian baker for the naval base and he got a job offer in Michigan when I was about three years old at Schaefer Baking Company. By the time he got here with the family, that job had been filled, so he got another job on West Saginaw at Goss Baking Company in Lansing. So that's how we got here to Lansing and I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1:Wow, I remember the old Schaefer Bread place. My uncle lived over there and when I would stay with him you'd wake up in the morning and just smell that fresh bread.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's pretty amazing. It is yeah. So whereabouts in Lansing did you live.
Speaker 2:Well, I grew up. The first house we lived in was on Cavanaugh Road, out by Dunkel. Then we moved. When I was about five or six we moved into Lansing on Pine Street, went to Walnut Street School, walked then to West Junior, walked and went to Sexton, graduated from Sexton in 1966 and walked there too until I got my brother's car and got to drive to school.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, so you had a brother. Did you have any other siblings? No, okay, there's one brother.
Speaker 2:He's a retired bird colonel from the Army. Oh all right, Engineers.
Speaker 1:Okay, Well, talk to me a little bit about what it was like growing up. Now I know your dad was a baker. What did your mom do?
Speaker 2:She was a housemaker, and she did that until my father um, until all both of us kids were out of the house, uh. And then she got a job at naps okay and she worked in the linen department I love that nap store by.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm glad that they've kept it. Yeah. It's a beautiful place. It is. Yeah, so you know, if I were to ask you, you know what is like when you think about your mom, what is a memory that you have of her.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got lots of memories.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:She was how can I say this? She was a typical middle, middle-class American woman, uh, raising a family in Lansing. She didn't work. She never drove um, cause dad had the car and he we used it to go to work and brought the money home, and that was fine. When she got her own job, she always rode the bus or walked to work or one of us kids picked her up. So she was actually. She was quite well known by some folks.
Speaker 2:When I was in the military, part of my job was to be a secure voice communications specialist and when I got that job and got sent to Berlin first and I had to do secure voice checks around the world just to check the system, and I once called the National Guard headquarters here on Washington Avenue and the person who answered was the colonel at the time and he didn't know how to go secure and so I tried to talk him through it and he says well, what button do I have to push? And I said there should be a little white thing on the phone cradle. Well, I don't have one of those. Well, thanks. He says, is there anything I can do? I said yes, my mother just you know.
Speaker 2:He says is there anything I can do? I said yes, my mother works at NAPS. Oh, I've been to NAPS lots of times. And he says I can stop by there and tell her that. You said hi. And I said okay. So he did go up and my mother wrote to me and said this gentleman came up and he said you had called him and that I was fine. So that was a pretty neat idea.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so your mom would get random visits once in a while. Is that how that worked? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Thanks to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great. So what about your dad? What are some of your memories about your dad?
Speaker 2:Well, my dad played Santaus around that time of year and he would go to naps and rent the costumes that they had and I kind of picked up that family business. But we never had to to have the. We had these moments of when he we never lack for bread. I can tell you that I believe it. But one of the things that they always gave him around I can't remember what holiday, but they always gave him lobsters for some reason, oh, I can't remember what holiday, but they always gave him lobsters for some reason, oh, and he would bring them home and my mother would have to put them in the scalding hot water and things like that, uh-huh, but he always kept them in the basement and our house on Pine Street had a Michigan basement and he'd always take them down there because she didn't like to clean.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so he would go down there and he'd take us kids down there and look at them. You want to put your hands in the claws.
Speaker 4:No, thank you.
Speaker 2:I learned that really quick.
Speaker 1:That's a lesson you only have to learn once, isn't it?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Wow, so you and your brother? Is your brother older or younger?
Speaker 2:Older, six years older.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so it wasn't like you guys hung out together as kids.
Speaker 2:I do have a funny story about that. Oh, I'd love to hear it. It was wintertime because it was just three blocks away. Went to Seymour Avenue, methodist Church, german Methodist Church, and one day he was coming. We had a big social event at the church and he brought his girlfriend home. And, of course, at the church and he brought his girlfriend home and of course he was driving the car and I got out and he was in the house with her and I hid in the back seat and hunkered down and they both got in the car and as I peeked up over the back seat, he was kissing her and I thought that was the funniest thing in the world, because I was only like 11 or 12, right, and I just started laughing.
Speaker 2:And the next thing I know, I get blows on the head, you know and the door opens and he pushes me out, but I just I never stopped laughing.
Speaker 1:It was just hilarious in my Well, speaking as a younger brother, right, that's the kind of fun that you would have. Oh yeah. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about school. You kind of walk through the different schools that you went to and it's interesting because I think of all those schools, sexton's the only one still standing.
Speaker 2:That's correct. Well, they're standing, but they're no longer schools, unlike one's still standing, that's correct well, well, they're standing, but they're no longer schools. Yeah, yeah, yeah, unlike eastern, which is gone now. Yes, but that's a story for another time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, for sure. So what was school like for you? It was hard, as I kindergarten. I kindergarten was tough for me because I was a literal thinker and my parents brought me up right, and so when we played, had playtime, and one of the girls asked me to play house or whatever it was, and so I was getting ready to leave the house and I gave her a kiss and that was a bad thing to do. Even back then it wasn't, oh yeah. So that was my first kiss and probably my only one until a long time after that. Right, but I didn't know really how to read until I got to second grade and I had a really good teacher. Her name is and I'll never forget her name Mrs Wellman, and she taught me how to read and gave me a book that I was really interested in. So kudos to her, wherever she may be, because she was a gem, yeah, and got me reading, and that's got me reading all the time now uh-huh, was that like a?
Speaker 1:I have to think that was like a life changing moment, like when you're able to read. That changes the whole game for school especially. Yes, because you have to be able to read to do math. You have to be able to read to do math. You have to be able to read to do a lot of things. Right, you do yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. And then in third grade I have many stories about it I almost got kicked out of class for fighting. But the teacher again, mrs Sharp. I remember these teachers, three teachers in grade school very well. Mrs Sharp just calmly took me out in the hallway and she says you know, I don't think your parents would be appreciative of what you're doing and let's try to get along with people a little bit better. And I said okay, and she says I'm not going to send you to the principal's office or anything, we're just going to try this again. But remember, this is your one and only strike. And.
Speaker 2:I took that to heart, yeah.
Speaker 1:So who's the third teacher?
Speaker 2:Third teacher was Mrs Teddy. Okay, she was my sixth grade teacher and it was—she taught us to sing songs and it didn't matter whether they were religious or secular, it didn't matter at all. She was just a pleasant person and I'll always remember she had gotten her thumbs crushed when she was little and there was thumbs just didn't do anything, they were just stuck out like that and um. But she was very, very open and welcoming and it also when we go out to recess, uh, one of the things that uh was take me to the nurse. After we were playing softball and I was catcher and this pitcher pitched the ball and this sadistic batter hit the ball directly between us, the pitcher and me, and we ran together and hit heads and we were both knocked out.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh, just like the cartoons. Yes, did you see little birds or stars or anything? I?
Speaker 2:was just flat out gone. Yeah stars or anything. I was just flat out gone, yeah, and the next thing I remember is waking up with the nurse in the nurse's office. So somehow miss, miss teddy got me into there, and the other person too, because he was knocked out. Yeah so, and I learned how to duck at that time yeah, I'll bet.
Speaker 1:I'll bet. So this is a. This is a point in time too, where there wasn't middle school.
Speaker 2:You had right, you went to sixth grade and you went to junior high yes, junior high at west junior yeah, so tell me a little about west junior well, that was my first fight that I actually got into and that was a person who sat behind me in homeroom. That was the first experience of homeroom, but our teacher didn't very often come in because he was also the basketball coach and that type of stuff. So, he spent a lot of time in the gym and he just figured we'd be okay on our own. And this kid behind me I was probably at that time one of the biggest kids in school because I was bulked up, not muscular, but just fat.
Speaker 1:You and me both, brother, you and me both.
Speaker 2:And he kept on flicking my ear. He'd just bing, and me both. And he kept on flicking my ear, you know, just bing. And finally I just got so tired of that that I turned around and I said don't ever do that again. And he says what are you going to do? So we went into the cloakroom and we started fighting and I've never been a good boxer and so he landed quite quite a few punches. But once I got a hold of him, I just got him in a headlock and started ramming his head into the wall and I didn't stop until three kids got me off of him and he never touched me again.
Speaker 1:I'll bet. I'll bet everyone else thought twice about yeah too right yes yeah, so all through, kind of through that, how was junior high school for you then? Oh?
Speaker 2:it was fine. I was looking forward to being in ninth grade because the ninth graders had a football team and I always wanted to play football. So when I got into ninth grade I tried out for the football team and I made the team because I tackled the coach and because I could tackle the coach, he sent me in to get my uniform and that's how I started my football career.
Speaker 1:Well, that could have gone one of two ways right, yes, it could. Oh my goodness, so what position did you play?
Speaker 2:I played tackle, offensive tackle.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, all right, so that was the start of your football career. Yes, and then I'm assuming you go on to high school, did you continue?
Speaker 2:to play. I did, yeah, I played for well for one year with Russ Maples and then two years with Majeski, and yep, that's what I did JV first and then varsity in my senior year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so did Sexton and Eastern still share a field at that time. Yes, Okay, because that was always fun and it seemed like we when I was in school it seemed like we always played Sexton for our homecoming, which was kind of a nightmare, Cause that's a pretty big rivalry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It always was a lot more so than Everett.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean Everett was just kind of there, right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember those days, at least for me. So apparently, uh, even even back in the 60s, it was kind of the same thing oh, yes, yes so you graduated high school in 66. You said correct, okay, well, let's talk about what happens. Like you, you get through school, you're all set, you graduate. And then what?
Speaker 2:then it came, uh lcc uh-huh and I've got a student deferment because there was the draft. Then Vietnam was going on and I found I got. Another learning lesson was that the government watches your grade point average and when my grade point I was not a serious student. I met Nona there, but Right.
Speaker 1:You were serious about Nona, just not about school. Right, I got you.
Speaker 2:And she has a different story. However, but I found out that once my grade point fell below two points, I got my draft notice on Halloween of 1967, which told me to report for induction, and I said, oh thrilling.
Speaker 1:Right, maybe I should have studied a little more. That darn Nona she got me in trouble.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just her, I tell you. It was the group I hung out with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they weren't serious students either. I take it no, okay.
Speaker 2:But my one claim to fame is that I was one of the founding members of the LCC Marching Kazoo Band.
Speaker 1:Really yeah, and I'm familiar with that. That thing's still going on today, isn't it, is it? I don't know. Yeah, well, I remember in high school, it was still a thing. Yeah, yeah, I don't know about now. I went to lcc myself for a little while. So, yeah, so founding member. Yeah, did you guys like uh march at uh at events, or was just something you just did?
Speaker 2:well, you know, at that time we didn't really have teams. I mean, you know, it was just a small thing as just one building and we didn't have any athletic facility or anything. So we just hung around and marched around with our kazoos around the hallways or you know whatever. And that was about it.
Speaker 1:That's quite a way to not attract attention.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, it is. Wow, that's pretty amazing. That was about it. That's quite a way to not attract attention. Yes, yes, yes, it is.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's pretty amazing. So you met Nona there. Let's talk about that a little bit. So how'd that go? What's your story?
Speaker 2:Well, my story is that better because she also worked at the corner quality dairy, okay, and that's where I really got to know her Uh-huh. But I wanted to date her because I thought she was the most beautiful woman that I'd ever seen. And I never had dates during high school because I was one of those kids that just was an outcast and I lorded over that you know, and I was a bully in my neighborhood, you know. So I had I had issues you had stuff to work on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, joe and and so when I wasn't terrorizing the neighbors and I get, my mother sent me up for a lot of milk during those days years.
Speaker 2:And so I got to know her and I finally got the courage up to ask her out for a date. And it was the same day that, uh, she came into work and she was crying oh, and uh, I, I. But I went ahead with it and I asked her out for a date and, um, she didn't really want to go out because what had happened was the the guy she was, the had happened, was the the guy she was, the the other guy she was dating. Um, she wasn't dating me, but, uh, the other guy had told her that he was getting married that week, and not to her oh my gosh, yeah, wow so she got jilted and I happened to be.
Speaker 2:That was the day that I got enough courage to ask her out.
Speaker 1:Not a good time no, and thankfully not, because you'd have been the rebound guy and nobody wants to be the rebound guy right.
Speaker 2:Well, I wouldn't have minded, Right, right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's true. I want to ask this is kind of a weird question, but was it the Quality Dairy there on Cedar?
Speaker 2:No, it's the Quality Dairy on the corner of Pine Street and Saginaw.
Speaker 1:Okay, very familiar. I used to work at Consumers Energy. So yeah, right down. Okay, I was just trying to get a visual of where exactly this was at. So yeah, little quality dairies in all these neighborhoods. It was kind of cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're still there too.
Speaker 2:Yes, they are.
Speaker 1:They definitely are still selling milk. Definitely, but yeah, so she got jilted. You asked her out. Not a good time. What happens next?
Speaker 2:Well, I kept on asking her.
Speaker 1:You're persistent. I'm persistent.
Speaker 2:Yep. And finally she decided to go out with me because she just wanted to get it over with. And so we went out and our first date was memorable. I took her to the movies at the Gladmer Theater and we saw A man for All Seasons. And then there was a tornado alert on that night, and so we went out and chased tornadoes. Oh, and we almost found one over Grossbeck. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:What year would this have been? That was what 1967 okay all right, yeah, yeah, some wild times here. So so you're out chasing. So now you're like, oh well, maybe this is going to work out. So did you get that second date?
Speaker 2:I did Uh, but she has her own story about that. Okay.
Speaker 1:And her perspective is well, let's, let's switch the mic over and uh and uh, yeah, let's hear your story.
Speaker 4:Well, he's uh accurate in a lot of the uh information and the fact that I did get jilted and the same day that I found out that that person was getting married and his first name, by the way, was also Joe.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's easy.
Speaker 4:And anyway, I kept putting him off, and putting him off, and putting him off, and finally I said, okay, let's just get this over with. So we went out on the date the date uh was as he described, uh, and as we were, he brought me home, he walked me up to the front door and he didn't even attempt to kiss me and at the time I wasn't sure if I was relieved or insulted. Okay, and so he walked back to the car and I went inside the door. And as soon as I walked inside the door and closed it, I knew he was going to be the one that I married. I did not like him at the time, but I knew he was going to be the one that I would marry.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 4:That is amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like the phrase. I don't know if I was insulted or relieved. You know I remember dating and as a guy even sometimes you're like I don't know if this is good or bad. Right, exactly, so you just knew, like it wasn't love at first sight, it was recognition at first sight. Then, Well in many ways, I think.
Speaker 4:God had a way of telling me that that was what was going to happen. I didn't recognize God's presence in my life at that point in time, but looking back on it, I really feel as though God was nudging me and saying yep, this is the one you're going to marry.
Speaker 1:Wow, and here you are. So I don't want to get off track, but how many years have you been married?
Speaker 4:then It'll be 53 in May.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that guy upstairs knew what he was talking about, even if you didn't agree with him at the time.
Speaker 4:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:That's great Well, congratulations.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for sharing that part of the story. Okay, I don't often get the perspective so this has been kind of nice, all right. So we've got her story. She's here to keep you honest, joe oh, I know that yeah, so you uh, so things are kind of chugging along. You're going to school, uh, you and nona are on the right path, sort of um at least beginning right and then it sounds like, and then you got your, your notice I.
Speaker 2:I got a draft notice on Halloween to report on, I think in a week, so that would put it in November and went down for my physical to Detroit and passed that Wonderful. And then the army provided me with my first plane ride in an old DC-3 to Louisville, kentucky, and then on a bus to Fort Knox and spent my first week in the Army taking a battery of tests, and it was just so wonderful.
Speaker 1:Do I note a hint of sarcasm in your voice?
Speaker 2:Is that what I'm hearing? Just a little, yeah, okay, just want to make sure. And we stayed in the old two-story barracks wooden barracks from World War II, and one of the extracurricular stuff that we had to do was and they offered anybody who was a draftee if they wanted to enlist for the extra year to be an enlistee, they'd guarantee the school of your choice. So I said, where do I sign? So I had to be discharged and then enlist. So that was a wonderful morning, thank you.
Speaker 1:Government Can't you just extend me for a year and give me a school. No, no, we got to throw this paperwork.
Speaker 2:That's right. So when I went in for to get all that done, the sergeant there he says so what school do you want to go to? And I said I don't know. You have all the information because I hadn't shared it with me yet. And he gets out this list and he's going well, these are all the schools that you could enlist in. You know to go to after basic training. So I went down. The only line that I went down was how long the school was, and they had this one that was called fixed siphony repair, 32 Foxtrot. See, you get this stuff and you never forget it.
Speaker 1:No, you don't. It's in your head. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And it was 38 weeks and I and I said, boy, that's almost a year, that's the one I want. And he looks at it and he goes fix siphony repair. Do you know what that is? And I said, no, neither do I. Well, what it was is, uh, secure voice communications repair. So I said, yeah, sounds good to me, you know. Why not. Yeah, it was 38 weeks. That's more than a year. So I did my two months at Fort Knox, then through all the wonderful conditioning and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Training your body and your mind. Yes, all that fun stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so after, and the great thing was that I learned really quick that I signed up for every what do you call it? The? That wasn't training, you know, hardcore you didn't have to do calisthenics, but you had to go and learn about this and I signed up for jump school and fixed pilot training and I signed up for everything I could because I got at least four hours of comp time or training time without having to do calisthenics.
Speaker 1:It's a beautiful thing, Do you think, do you think, though, that your time playing football helped you go through basic training? Were you, were you still kind of a big guy when you went through basic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was, but I got down. The one good thing about basic training was I got to my best weight that I've ever been, and I was at the fittest. Yeah. There were several things that the Army gave me, and one of them was I grew up. That's a very important lesson.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I wasn't the same person when I came back as I was when I went in, yeah, but that experience, basic training, was interesting because there was only, I would say, in my unit, my company. There was our platoon, I don't know what it is, but anyway, most of them came from the south, alabama, georgia, louisiana, and our sergeant was a northern, northern guy yeah our drill sergeant and he got the uh seven people that were not from the South and he gave us all. We were platoon leaders and acting sergeant.
Speaker 1:So there was a little bit of a benefit there, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, there was.
Speaker 1:Probably because he could just understand what you were saying mostly.
Speaker 2:Probably, and he knew the caliber of education for the south in those days right so so we got, we did get benefits you got some leadership lessons too, I'm sure I yes, I did yeah yep, because one of my, one of the uh guys in my unit, uh, tried to go awol and we had to go down and search for him and picked them up at the bus station before he got a chance to go back to Massachusetts.
Speaker 1:You know, interesting little side note when I went to basic training in California in the Navy and the Navy basic training is right next to the Marine Corps basic training and we had a guy who decided he didn't want to be in the Navy anymore so he hopped the fence to go to the airport. Didn't realize he was hopping the fence into Marine Corps basic training and so and they kept him for like a week or two and when he came back he was so happy to be in the Navy.
Speaker 1:Navy's the best thing that ever happened to him.
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you, uh, you know you make it through basic training and you've chosen this field, which I couldn't pronounce if I tried yeah and uh. So where did you stay right there at fort knox? Should you go someplace else?
Speaker 2:no, they sent me to um, fort monmouth, new jersey. Okay, uh, signal school. And by the time I got out of basic training, they'd added another equipment which made it 48 weeks what a shame yeah, and it's like wow, you know, that's my year right right, yeah, so you were in the signal core.
Speaker 2:Though I was in the signal core, okay yep and uh got trained, went to school uh, from 11 pm to to 7 am. That was my school because it ran 24 hours, oh my gosh, and there were some interesting times there. I learned how to smoke because I noticed that the guys that smoked got breaks and I said I want a break.
Speaker 1:There's an incentive to start smoking. Right, that's right.
Speaker 2:So I did that. So we had I graduated and one other person and I were sent to Berlin, Germany, to set the system up for the Berlin Brigade.
Speaker 1:Okay to set the system up for the Berlin Brigade. Okay, now, before we get too far into that, did you come home on leave and visit the lovely Nona at all?
Speaker 2:Well, she came out to visit me in New Jersey.
Speaker 2:Okay and we kind of got connected. But you know, when you're going to school and you get out at 7 am and it's summer, and you know you're just going, oh man, it's am and it's summer and you're just going, oh man, it's a bright sun and I was sleepy. So I put my coat over my face and took a siesta underneath a tree where I was going to meet her, and she never saw me. Of course I can't blame her for not lifting up the coat.
Speaker 1:Right right saw me.
Speaker 2:Of course I can't blame her for not lifting up the coat right right, uh, but the uh folks there were treated her very kindly and got her set up to stay at the um what was it?
Speaker 1:the, the guest house oh, yeah, yeah, like I. I know now they call it the Army Lodge, right, yeah, yeah, so okay, it'd be the guest house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I came back. You know, nobody showed up in my conscious opinion, right? And so the next thing I did was go back to my company, and there's this Joe Spackman, your girlfriend is at the law. Oh nice, oh okay company, and there's this joe spackman, your girlfriend is at the law, oh nice, oh okay, she did come. Yeah, so we got together there, good good.
Speaker 1:So, and then you, uh, you fly off to germany to to set, to set this equipment up. Oh yes, so how was germany?
Speaker 2:germany was nice. It was a lot better in vietnam, yeah, um, which I was very happy for, uh, and after the training, or being trained for this, um, it gave me the potential to have a top secret crypto clearance. Um, and sa added on to that special whatever, and that was one step higher than the president has.
Speaker 1:Oh, so you got to know things. The president didn't even know.
Speaker 2:Well, supposedly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hypothetically speaking.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it took five days to get all the processing into Europe and then on the duty train to Berlin because at that time it was a divided country, right, and Berlin was divided and got through and picked up and taken to the company and gets picked up and taken to the company and really at that point in my life I was not a Christian, I did everything I could to circumvent the church and, lo and behold, the company that I was in was stationed in the former Liebstandard Adolf Hitler barracks in Lichterfeld and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.
Speaker 2:You, know, I was in the because I was into Nazism. Right. Neo-nazism and the occult, and I just thought, hey, this is great. So after that I got, when I finally my clearance finally came, I got to go into the. I did a lot of KP before that, right, because as you're waiting to get your clearance to go to the comm center, um, that's what you do.
Speaker 2:You do all the nasty stuff all the stuff nobody else wants to do, right, that's correct, but one of the advantages was that I got to go up on the roof and clear the dummy uh mortar rounds off the roof that the Soviets and the East Germans shoot over, just to let us know that they have us pinpointed.
Speaker 1:Right and that they're still there. Yes, I want to ask a quick question. Yeah. How was it that you found yourself into neo-Nazism and the occult? Just curious, that's like you just sort of said it like oh, this is what normally happens, but no, so just kind of quickly, how did you get involved in that?
Speaker 2:Well, when I was 15, I felt I had a call to go into the ministry of the Methodist Church and so I went and talked to my pastor at that time and he said, after he stopped laughing, he said no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I think you misheard that because the ministry is a serious path of work and you're not serious enough to do that, maybe you should go into acting. So I figured, if that's what he thought, then this is not the place I want to be, and I just turned and rejected God at that point in time, all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he missed an opportunity. To mentor a young man is what he did.
Speaker 2:I think so too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a great lesson though.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, right, even though it's kind of a negative lesson, a great lesson to learn, yeah yeah, and I started collecting uh literature on the occult satanism, neo-nazism and on all that stuff, because it just interested me right um, and actually it didn't change until I got out of the Army and got reconnected to her and this young lady here she says why don't you go to church with me? And that's the first time I'd been in church since I got out of left home so to speak, okay.
Speaker 2:Because my parents never let me get out of going to church on sunday right, good for good for them, though.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's right all right, so we'll hold that thought, we'll go, we'll go back to germany now. Okay, I just wanted to kind of get some background on that, uh, just really for the audience and for anyone who listens to this later on in life, like I didn't want to just breeze past it. So sure, yeah, so you're there and you're kind of in the homeland, basically.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're clearing the dummy rounds off the roof. Yeah, that doesn't really sound like a lot of fun to me, but I guess it could be.
Speaker 2:It was an awakening for me, because you know, you know right off the bat that, because the mystique of Berlin Brigade is that if a shooting war heats up, heats up, the best thing that could happen would be that they'd, you know, the East Germans and theussians would, uh, erect signs all over the place.
Speaker 2:you're now prisoners of war, you know, and without ever having to close anything down right um, but um, it gave me a a sense that, uh, that was true and uh, I have lots of stories about being buzzed by bigs during crisis times and and things like that. And and to my job of fixing basically carrying the daily credit card or credit cards code cards up to the general's office to be changed daily. I had to also go to all the other spy agencies that had the secure voice system that we'd set up and I didn't have to change their cards, but I had to repair the equipment, yeah. I didn't have to change their cards.
Speaker 2:But I had to repair the equipment. That's why I had the clearance to get me into every spy agency. There were 35.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a lot of work.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, fortunately there were two of us.
Speaker 1:Right, so you could split that up. Yeah Well, it sounds like a really interesting job. But also, if you think about the time right, you're potentially like front line to World War III if it were to break out right now. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a matter of fact, one of the incidents that I had, the infantry provided the guards to our comm center, which was down in the basement of the building that we were in, and they would change when we had an alert and the MPs would come and guard it. And one day I was just shooting the breeze with one of the MPs and I said I've noticed this, why are you? Why change the guard? And he says well, it's like this. He says we're trained to make sure that you, if shooting war starts and there's alert status. He says we're here to make sure that you destroy all your equipment if need be, and then get you to the Grunewald where to hold out for two weeks. I always thought that was funny, but we're 110 miles behind enemy lines and we're going to hold out for two weeks.
Speaker 2:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Who came up with that? Probably someone who didn't have a clearance.
Speaker 2:And he says to me he says well, well, if we can't get you there, then our job is to shoot you so that you don't fall into enemy hands. And I said who is my enemy here?
Speaker 2:right, yeah, who's the real enemy, wow so that was another awakening, yeah, and I got a lot of incidents that happened during that time. It was very, very enlightening for me, but it was also challenging because it shook my worldview, if you will, and about how things run, if you're doing what you need to do and I haven't lost that yet yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of stuff you can learn, especially when you're in a situation like that. It's like a, it's like you're at war but you're not at war and you just don't know what's going to happen on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2:Really, Right and and the silliness and the inaneness of the military. Sometimes, Because I was carrying coated material, I was authorized to carry a weapon and they gave me a .45 automatic, a Colt .45 automatic, but they didn't give me any bullets.
Speaker 1:You're not even Barney fife at that point and I'm going.
Speaker 2:What am I supposed to do with this gun? Sure, I don't know, but I found out. I had a a very good opportunity to test the theory. Um, when I was in the general's office I neglected to was in the general's office. I neglected to lock the general's front door and so I was in there and I had the safe open and I was putting the cards in and the cleaning woman came in. She was German, to clean the office and my instinct was to pull my weapon and point it at her and say halt, you know you can't come in here. And she saw that, point it at her and say halt, you know you're right, you can't come in here. And she saw that gun pointing at her and she buckled and you know, mop and everything else went falling all over the place. She ran out. I went over, locked the door, continued until I was done and came out, and then I was faced with 45 by the by Right.
Speaker 1:They want to know what you were doing right.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right, yeah. And so he was a sergeant and he was going to just he just read me the riot act, oh, it was just wonderful. And I said you know, I went through what I'd been trained to do. You are delaying a courier with secure materials and I just call the EO emergency operations officer, and he'll verify my presence here. Well, he didn't do that. He called the duty officer, the regular duty officer, his duty officer. So then they were going to gang up on me here. Right.
Speaker 2:And he was telling me you're going to go to Leavenworth. Oh okay, I just calmly sat down and got my arms across everything and he had already taken my unloaded weapon yeah, wouldn't want you hurting yourself with that, that's right and so the uh officer of the day, um called the eo officer and the eo officer read him the riot act and and the next thing, I know that the uh he calls the sergeant and the sergeant is sitting there and he says you can go. Thank you very much have a nice day.
Speaker 1:Can I have my gun back? Yes, yeah yeah wow. So yeah, I mean that's. That's interesting, like when people don't understand what the protocol is, they can, they think they're, but they can get themselves in a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes. So how long were you in Germany then?
Speaker 2:I was there for 18 months.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, and then that was sort of your whole enlistment, right?
Speaker 2:Pretty much yeah, because with the year and in New Jersey and two or three months in basic training and that was it, yeah, I got. I think I got out a month early okay because, I got out on what? Yeah, december, all right home in time for Christmas very nice, very nice.
Speaker 1:So you fly back home and you've got some it sounds like some maturity and some interesting training. And also you learned a lot while you were there.
Speaker 2:I did. I learned a lot about myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so you come home. Did you come right back to Michigan then?
Speaker 2:Well, I stopped off to see the sergeant who lived in Lebanon, ohio, just outside Cincinnati, and he put me up for a couple days and then he drove me up to Michigan.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, so did you out. Process then right back at Fort Knox I flew into New York. Okay.
Speaker 2:And at I think it was Fort Franklin or there in the harbor someplace. Yeah, Was discharged.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So you go to Ohio for a couple days and you come back home. And what was it like coming home?
Speaker 2:It was nice coming home. I hadn't changed too much. I mean, inside I didn't feel like I'd changed some, but I had really, yeah, and you know, got reconnected with Nona and that was when she invited me to go to church with her, when I first walked into the church with her. That began the process of me transforming back into something that's not on the dark side of the force, right.
Speaker 1:Right, you're going to start using your, your powers, for good at this point right. Yes, yeah, so I want to. I got to ask, though, before we get too deep into this, like was she still slinging milk at Quality Dairy when you got back?
Speaker 2:No, okay.
Speaker 4:No, she was going through the nursing program, weren't you? No, I was doing that when we first met at. Quality Dairy. When you came back, I believe I was working either at St Lawrence. No, I wasn't working at St Lawrence, I was working at Pepsi when? At Pepsi. Oh yes, okay so she's working at Pepsi when you get back, okay.
Speaker 1:All right, you reconnected, you go to church, so let's talk about that. Okay, you didn't get hit by lightning. That was a good thing, because that's correct, because I would have been afraid of that walking into church after all that time.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so you go to church. She was teaching Sunday school. Uh-huh Little kids, two and three-year-olds, yeah, and you know what? It was? Christ United Methodist Church on Jolly Road, and when I walked in the door, one of the first people that met me was my homeroom teacher from Sexton. Oh.
Speaker 2:And he welcomed me and he remembered me and he didn't treat me like a student. He treated me like any other person that would come into the church. Yeah, and then I met my algebra teacher and my chemistry teacher and I'm going and they all treated me like I was not one of their students now, but they remembered me Right, you were an adult. I was an adult.
Speaker 1:And this was what? 1971?
Speaker 2:70, 71, yeah, Okay, all right, so it sounds like a good experience when you first get oh yeah it was wonderful, yeah, and then we, we got serious in our relationship and we got married in the church and at 1972 and in 74 we both accepted christ and we became uh, we, we took over the senior high youth group okay, all right, before we talk about this, something that's going to be a good story before we talk about that, talk to me about, like that moment that you like realized in your heart you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:Like anyone who's anyone who's a christian, who, um, may not have been a christian before. This is a moment where you realize this is for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, so talk a little bit about that well, um, we had gone, gone to a lay witness mission. It was what? Four days, yeah, from Thursday through Sunday, and we first signed up to help out in the kitchen and that type of stuff, but we also attended and the testimonies of the folks were very moving, very authentic. And at the end, with the final worship, they asked anybody who was convicted or you know whatever, to come forward. And I went, know whatever, um, to come forward, and I went forward. She went forward and we cried and and uh, that's that changed. That was a life changing event.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And for anyone listening who doesn't know understand that word convicted, um, that's like um. It's hard to describe, but it's like that feeling in your heart that that you know it's, it's just time to give your life over to Christ, and that's when we talk about conviction in the church. That's really what we're talking about. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's what John Wesley talked about in his conversion, when he felt his heart strangely warm. Yes, that he could believe in God and Christ for salvation. Yes. And it's an amazing feeling. It became real. Yeah, it became real. It was the difference between knowing about God and knowing God.
Speaker 1:And it's really the difference between a feeling and an actual conversion. Yes, right, because you can feel something that makes you go to the altar and convert, but it's the actual, like change in your life that happens, not just some feeling you got.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you both on the same day.
Speaker 2:Yes, wow, at the same event.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. That's pretty amazing, it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and after that I felt the call again from God and I went and talked to my pastor then and he affirmed it, and maybe that's the difference. I had to go through this training process.
Speaker 1:So do you think so? Earlier on? This is interesting to me. So earlier on I made kind of the the comment that guy missed out on a chance to to uh mentor a young, a young man but do you? I mean, when you look back, it's kind of god's plan. You had to go through all that other stuff right and figure out that this is what you needed in your life, and then here you are right right.
Speaker 1:So it's a whole. Everything happens for a reason, but we can, you know, when we look back on it. Yeah, it all seems to make sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I look back on it as a training ground for what I was going to be doing in ministry Didn't really. When I was serving in Allegan, one of our youth group in the Allegan there was dating a girl who was all dressed in black and had the kind of like the white pancake stuff a goth, yeah, and he brought her to church where I was preaching and as she was going out, she said hi, I'm Satan.
Speaker 2:And I looked at her and I think she was just trying to get a shocking response from me. But I said, no, I've seen Satan and you're not him. And that stopped her short. And she says well, I'm Satan. No, I said I've seen Satan and you are not him, but you're always welcome here. And that made all the difference in her life. She transformed her life. She didn't go to our church, right, but she ended up going to a church that would accept her for who she was at that point and she turned her whole life around. So, but if I hadn't had the experience of black sabbath and all that other junk, um, maybe I would have reacted a different way right but because I had, I had that, then I had.
Speaker 1:Well, it's meeting people where they're at right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes we forget, like Jesus, ate with tax collectors and prostitutes.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, he did.
Speaker 1:He didn't hang out at the club and hang out with all the good folk. He hung out with people that needed him to hang out with them. Right, and sometimes I think we forget that.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right, and sometimes I think we forget that. Yes, yeah, so you're moving along. You got married in 1972, right. And now you're going to tell me that you both were like over a high school group or something before.
Speaker 2:I rudely interrupted you. We were the youth group leaders at Christ Church. Okay. We've been also youth leaders in about every church we've been into except the last one and that type of stuff. We had people coming from almost every high school okamas, sexton, everett, you know yeah waverly um don't forget eastern joe.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't forget that.
Speaker 2:Okay, I just want to make sure uh, and you know they didn't get along because you know they were from every high school in the area Right, and the rivalries kept, you know, and there were a couple from there was one from Everett and one from Okemos Okemos, yes, and we took the youth group 10 of them to Frakes, kentucky, on a work and encounter mission and the work part of it was that we helped the community down there with various tasks. One of them was canning, because we went down in the fall Summer yeah, you know canning and and painting and um, because I was, they put me to work driving truck and you know things like that rounding up cattle you know whatever, just sort of whatever needed to be done.
Speaker 2:It sounds like yeah and we we were there with uh and doing this with a youth group from Florida and we'd never met until we got to Frakes and boy, the kids learned a lot about us and we learned a lot about them. But these two girls, one from Everett and one from Okemos, they didn't get along anytime during youth group and they were put to a four day task of painting this little block storage shed. They had to work out their differences and they did, and they came back fast friends and they still are, and you know, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:And over the years, we have encountered—it's a good word—encountered several of our former youth group people that are still active in the church, and what that helps me, and both of us think, is we made an impact, a positive impact, on these people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the seed you planted grew right. Yeah, not 100%, but a lot, yeah For sure. So when you left the military, you essentially went right into ministry.
Speaker 2:Then no, okay um, we didn't know what god had in mind. We just knew that we wanted to dedicate our service yeah uh, for god's good okay and so we were thinking about you know, we we were thinking about going into missionary work, but it was pretty definite that God wanted me to be a United Methodist pastor and he wanted me to be ordained. Okay. So we went to seminary and this is a couple years after because I was involved in the Lake Lansing dredging project.
Speaker 2:I was working at an engineering firm at the time and I worked my way up from draftsman to inspector and then construction inspector. And that's where my boss sent me was to the Lake Lansing dredging project, Cause it had never been done on that scale. And I he told me what I needed to look for and I looked for that and did all the things and hey, I got to drive a pickup truck. That's the only time I've ever driven a pickup truck.
Speaker 1:Can't go wrong.
Speaker 2:I know and I had access to a, a pont pontoon boat. Never had a pontoon boat before either, so everything's looking good for you, joe, oh yeah yeah, so I was out there and for about five years oh while they dredged yeah, that was a huge project it was and it'll never be done again.
Speaker 2:No, it's too expensive and too much controversy. Yeah, but I learned a lot and then after that my first job after the military was at an architectural firm where I worked my way up from office boy and gopher to a draftsman. I was a plumbing draftsman there and then one of the engineers left to go to Snell Environmental Group and they needed another draftsman. So he suggested that I call the company. And called the company and interviewed and got the job and had another close group of friends yeah we hung out with you know um, we almost got kicked out of uh, clara's yes clara's.
Speaker 1:I remember clara's, yeah, downtown there and we?
Speaker 2:we weren't drinking uh-huh we were just boisterously involved in having fun, you know.
Speaker 1:Somebody thought you were drinking must be, yes, I think so.
Speaker 2:Because we were making too much noise.
Speaker 1:So how long were you there then, at the architectural firm?
Speaker 2:The architectural firm was only a couple years, I got laid off and I was only off for a month or so when I got a call from Bob Newman about applying at Snell Environmental Group and Snell had bought the building. That was the church I grew up in.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Seymour Avenue, right in the corner of Saginaw and Seymour. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, so I could tell them a lot about the building they were in. Oh, I'll bet, because I knew every nook and cranny of that place.
Speaker 1:You knew all the hiding places? Yeah, so did you go to I just want to kind of put the timeline together so did you go to seminary while you were doing all of this, or you went to seminary after? After, while you were doing all of this, or you went to seminary after after, so seminary was like a second career for you oh, yes, so how long? So how long were you at snell?
Speaker 2:I was there for about what? Five, six years? Okay, well at least six or seven. Yeah, it could be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I was a drafts person for two or three years until they got the contract for the lake dredging project yeah and then I uh, then I got connected with that okay, so you're doing that for five years, right, and then uh and I was.
Speaker 2:I had to finish up my undergraduate degree. Okay, and I applied at michigan state and they did not have any religious studies there, right? So I ended up going to Spring Harbor for my year and a half or two years to get my undergraduate degree. Okay, because I finished up my two-year degree from LCC yes, in general education.
Speaker 1:I'd say I want to ask you a question about LCC. Yeah, general education. Yes, I want to ask you a question about LCC.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I went to LCC right out of high school and I got terrible grades so I joined the military. So, fast forward, I had to get my undergrad when I went to officer candidate school and this was probably close to 30 years after I had gone to LCC. But I was going back to LCC to work through their program and I, even though it was 30 years ago, they put me on academic probation based on my grades from years ago. So I just wondered if they I guess your grades were good enough to be there but not good enough to stay out of the military Right, Whereas my grades were horrible, but anyway. Yeah, so they held that against me. Did they do that to?
Speaker 2:you? Yes, they did.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was on probation until I got it up above 2. Okay yeah, I think I graduated with maybe a 2.8, but I was a lot better student Right and that's how low my grades got.
Speaker 1:You learned a few things right I did yeah so you, uh, you get your undergrad and then, um, at what point did you go to seminary then? What year would that have been? Was?
Speaker 2:that 1983 we went because I graduated in 87 yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so where'd you go to seminary?
Speaker 2:In Dayton, ohio, at United Theological Seminary.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that was four years long then for you.
Speaker 2:It was well. It was three years of classroom, but I took a year off to go to England for a year. Okay. To be the student pastor at Wesley's Chapel in London. Oh how cool.
Speaker 1:That must have been a great experience.
Speaker 2:Oh, it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We learned more about Wesley and Methodism than we ever thought we'd ever learn, even the backdoor stories.
Speaker 1:Right right, Are they affiliated with the Wesleyan College down in Virginia?
Speaker 2:Well, wesleyan faith came out of that. Methodism got started here in the colonies in 1784 at the Christmas conference in Baltimore, ohio, baltimore, maryland yeah, not Baltimore. Baltimore. Maryland, baltimore, maryland, baltimore yeah, not Baltimore.
Speaker 1:Baltimore, maryland, baltimore, maryland.
Speaker 2:Gotcha Yep and I had relatives that attended that. Okay. From Pennsylvania, because that's where my family's from. Uh-huh. And so I learned that and I've had a—I come from a line of Methodists. My one great great relative, great, great great relative in the 1800s was a lay preacher for the Methodist circuit in Pennsylvania, central Pennsylvania, and I have his certificate of of that. He can do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a nice piece of history for your family.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, interesting, fun fact I was baptized at the United Methodist Church on Pennsylvania Avenue.
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a Methodist church anymore, it's something else. But yeah, it was a Methodist church when I was a kid, calvary. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, sycamore Creek. Yeah, it's Sycamore Creek now. Yeah, but it was, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Didn't know that. Didn't know that. But yeah, it was the United Methodist Church when I was a kid. So you go to England, you hang out there for a year. Yep, learn a lot of great stuff, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2:Yes, I found out about a lot of religions because one of the duties of the student pastor because they had had several student pastors we were the first to go.
Speaker 2:I was the oldest to go, chosen to go there's one a year and I was the only married one to go.
Speaker 2:And it was good that she went along because she helped set up the computer system at Wesley's Chapel and she has that skill because I don't.
Speaker 2:And I found out that part of my task was not only to assist the pastor the head pastor on Sunday mornings but also do the Thursday midweek service at noon for the business district, because City Road is in the middle of the mile square of central London and it's basically office buildings. So we'd open up the church for tours of Methodists and anybody else who wanted to come by. But also we had a service every week and that was my job of running that and then also being the free church chaplain at the City of London Polytechnic and the City University in Clerkenwell and right across the street from the Tower of London. And as part of that my duties were to provide pastoral care and services, if you will, to anybody who wasn't Anglican Church of England or Roman Catholic anybody who wasn't Anglican Church of England or Roman Catholic, so that included Druids, baptists, everybody else that had Muslims, buddhists, wow. So I learned a lot about a lot of that stuff and the religions just by osmosis.
Speaker 1:Right. What a great experience to have under your belt.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, so when you come back.
Speaker 1:So how did that work? You were two years in Ohio and then a year.
Speaker 2:The first two years I was in Ohio attending classes going through the regular seminary. Third year we were in London and the fourth year then I came back to my senior year to get my degree.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, and then so in 1987, it sounds like you got your degree.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Where'd you go from there?
Speaker 2:Then I began to be a circuit pastor. Okay. From the churches and a circuit pastor from the churches.
Speaker 1:And a circuit pastor means you didn't have like one church right. Well that's very true.
Speaker 2:When I was going to Spring Arbor College to get my undergraduate degree, I was a student pastor at Mulliken, which was quarter time, and when I went to seminary, usually, in the scheme of things, in the Methodist church you don't go back to any place. You've been for quite some time. So when I got my first appointment they had made that they had made Mulliken and Cebu a center out by uh uh, out West side of you know, by Grand Ledge, sort of beyond there oh you're fine and uh yeah, and she is from Sunfield, so that was like going home for her and her parents became members of the church and that's where they sent me for my first four years.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Then we went to three churches north of St John's and then to one church in Allegan and one church in Pawpaw, and then I retired and then I spent 11 years at Delta Mills in Northwest Lansing.
Speaker 1:Okay, familiar with that area too. Yeah, so even though you're retired, you weren't really retired, no, yeah, now I'm retired.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're not doing any of that now, yes, I am, I'm teaching sunday school, of course you just can't get away like yeah, I retired from two different jobs and I still do this, so yeah yeah, I get it like I think, if I didn't do something I'd really yeah, yeah, and god's god still blesses me with the skills he's, he's, taught me yeah and so I use them yeah well, that's good.
Speaker 1:Now a question I have is I noticed that we didn't talk about still blesses me with the skills he's taught me, yeah, and so I use them. Yeah, well, that's good. Now a question I have is I noticed that we didn't talk about children and I have to ask you did you have kids, or you were just raising everybody else's kids?
Speaker 2:Yes, we raised everybody else's kids. We were not blessed with children?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it wasn't for lack of trying, yeah Well you know, got to do what you got to do there, joe, yeah, so yeah, so you're retired, but you're still teaching Sunday school, right, we're doing pastoral care Okay.
Speaker 2:Helping out with the pastoral care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it sounds like it's a very I mean, it sounds very fulfilling.
Speaker 2:It is yeah, and it's a lot easier to do. I don't have to worry about all the paperwork or anything like that, Right right.
Speaker 1:It's like being a reserve cop, right, Like you get to do the good parts but you don't have to worry about all the other stuff yes. Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. So I mean, you've lived a full life and it's been interesting to hear where you started and where you're at now. So I do want to ask. I have two questions. The first one is is there anything that we didn't talk about that you would like to make sure that we do talk about?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm still involved with the folks that I met in the military from Berlin and we meet every two years anywhere in the country.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:We haven't been to Texas yet, but we've been to New Hampshire. We have one couple that lives in Muskegon, so we've been here, they've come to our house and things like that. But we've also been Branson, missouri, ohio, ohio, yep.
Speaker 1:When's the next one?
Speaker 2:This coming September we're going to York, pennsylvania, that area.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 2:And it'll be the first time for the guy that lives there. Uh huh. Um, he's never been able to to make any of them, so.
Speaker 1:Isn't it really interesting to, to reconnect with your army buddies, your military friends, Because for me it always seems like, hey, we just pick up where we left off. Nothing really changes.
Speaker 2:Right, and she was not a part of it because, I wasn't married and the others were so far. So, which was interesting, I hung out with all these married people.
Speaker 1:Right Probably kept you on the straight and narrow, maybe.
Speaker 2:I think that was planned as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's good that you stay connected. Um, you know, I find that people either do or they don't, you know, but it's, it's really good. Um, I think that's like it's part of your history, right? Yeah, and we're very good friends still with folks that I worked with at snell environmental okay um, you know, except for some losses we've had Right, but that happens in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially as we get older, right.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I turned 60 today, so yeah, well, congratulations. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Happy birthday.
Speaker 1:Another time around the sun. I guess I got. So, that's good, so yeah, so, really, the only. I have one final question to ask you, and that is as people listen to this story and hear about your life, what message would you have for them?
Speaker 2:You're never too bad, lost or not grown up enough to change.
Speaker 1:Great message and I want to say thank you to both of you for taking time out of your day to be here with us, and I look forward to talking with you again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you.
