Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
Veterans Archives is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information. www.veteransarchives.org
Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
Trust Your Gut: Lessons From the Military Life of Kevin Justice
From the quiet suburbs of St. Clair Shores, Michigan to the chaotic streets of Mogadishu, Kevin Justice's military journey spans over twenty years and four major conflicts that shaped modern American history. Kevin's story begins with his 1989 enlistment in the Army as a petroleum supply specialist, following in his father's military footsteps.
The conversation takes us through Kevin's evolution from a fresh recruit at Fort Leonard Wood to a combat veteran deployed to Desert Storm, Somalia, Bosnia, and Iraq. His vivid descriptions of Somalia are particularly gripping - "If you could find a place on this earth that was the rottenest place in the world, that was probably one of them." As a driver navigating Mogadishu's dangerous streets, Kevin faced daily threats while restrictive rules of engagement tied soldiers' hands from adequately protecting themselves.
What emerges through Kevin's story is how military service fundamentally rewires your thinking. "Everywhere I go - where's the exit? What will I do if this happens?" This heightened situational awareness becomes second nature, a permanent lens through which veterans view the world long after their service ends. His philosophy is powerfully simple: "Follow your instincts. It's your gut that's going to get you through life and hard times. If you second guess your gut, you're going to second guess your life."
After retiring as a drill sergeant in 2009, Kevin's transition to civilian life included work in corrections, education, and finally hospital security, where his military training continues to serve him well. His ability to handle challenging situations has earned him the respect of medical staff who know they can count on him in crisis situations.
Have you listened to a veteran's story lately? Their experiences offer valuable perspective on resilience, adaptability, and maintaining composure under pressure - lessons that transcend the battlefield and apply to everyday life.
Today is Thursday, may 22nd 2025. We're talking with Kevin Justice, who served the United States Army. So good morning, kevin. Good morning. It's a pleasure to be here in beautiful West Branch today, by the way.
Speaker 2:I don't know about so beautiful.
Speaker 1:It's a little.
Speaker 2:What do they say? So beautiful?
Speaker 1:A little questionable there, huh, uh-huh, all right. Well, we'll get started, and really the first question I have is when and where were you born?
Speaker 2:I was born April 27, 1971, in Detroit, michigan, grew up in St Clair Shores, michigan.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how was it that you?
Speaker 2:were born in Detroit I believe it was Detroit Mercy, uh-huh but then we moved to St Clair Shores. Okay, and so so did you basically grow up in St Clair Shores then?
Speaker 1:Yes, I grew up in St Clair Shores, all right. Well, tell me a little bit about childhood. You have brothers and sisters. I've got one brother and two sisters, okay, and where do you fall in the pecking order with all that? I'm the oldest one, okay, so you're the oldest child. I have an older sister who thinks she's my boss, even still today. Is that kind of how you?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Not so much so so, yeah, so tell me about being a kid at St Clair Shores.
Speaker 2:Well, grew up in St Clair Shores, went to a parochial school, uh, st Isaac Jogues. From first grade through eighth grade played basketball, played baseball. I started baseball when I was young, in first grade, and continued all the way out through eighth grade, including the Catholic Youth Organization organization elite, which is a spring league, then played summer ball. I started basketball in fifth grade and played basketball all the way out to 12th grade of high school.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're in parochial school up through like middle school. Then yes, all right. Was this still at a time when nuns would hit your fingers with the ruler, or?
Speaker 2:any of that? We didn't. I had one nun as a teacher and that was second grade. She liked to flip desks. Oh, so I'm not sure about the hitting of the ruler, but I know what you're talking about. Flipping a desk will definitely get your attention. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what was it like transitioning from parochial school then into public school?
Speaker 2:So what was it like transitioning from parochial school then into public school? A lot of my classmates from the parochial school went to the public school, but I knew some of them from playing baseball in summer league with them. But other than that, it wasn't that bad, okay. And how was school for you? School wasn't that bad, okay. And how was school for you? School wasn't that bad. I mean, I didn't excel like I probably should have, but I found out later that, yeah, I'm pretty smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have to be outside of the school setting to find out how smart you really are Not everybody excels sitting in a classroom.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my brother is very similar. Didn't do well in school at all, but really excelled when he got out, so, yeah, so anything from school or any memories from school that you'd like to share, anything kind of stick out in your mind.
Speaker 2:One thing is that I was on a baseball team that my dad coached and we went undefeated and took the championship, and I was an alternate for the All-Star team that year Wow, so if I could do it over again, I probably would have stayed in baseball instead of going to basketball. Yeah. Yeah, I was really good at hitting, but my defense was yeah okay.
Speaker 1:Well, you said your dad coached that team. Tell me a little bit about your dad well.
Speaker 2:He did a lot for us growing up. He passed away six years ago due to cancer. So I get involved with people that have cancer. I have a friend that lives in Colorado, that's part of a cancer group, who's also a veteran. She served in the same branch as my brother did. I became friends with her and she did a lot as far as cancer awareness. He taught us the do's and the don'ts. So did my mom. I'm not going to say they didn't. Let us get away with what kids get away with now.
Speaker 1:Right, there was some accountability in your house. Yes, yeah, what did your dad do for a living?
Speaker 2:He worked at GM Okay Computer data processor. He was also a vet. He served two years in the United States Army. Um, he went to school, or he went during the, or he was in basic during Vietnam. Uh, from what the stories he told us is that he was. He came down on orders twice to go to Nam and they rescinded his orders both times due to his job.
Speaker 1:Uh huh, so Okay. And then, what about your mom? What are some of your memories of your mom? She was a lunch lady at the school so you didn't get away with anything at school, did you? You couldn't really get away with anything at school, not?
Speaker 2:not at grade school, or and not as synagic jokes. Yeah, she also told us, right, you know, taught us right and wrong, what to do, what not to do, if we would get in trouble, if they and they would always find out if we did something wrong, right, so you couldn't get anything past them yeah well, I always told my kids no matter what you can think of doing, I've done it and been caught doing it.
Speaker 1:So good luck. Oh yeah, that was kind of my spiel to them. So you cruise along through high school. You switched from baseball to basketball. I'm assuming you graduated high school then? Yes, okay, and then so what happened after graduation?
Speaker 2:Well, after graduation, I didn't have very good grades, so I didn't see myself as a college type, so I joined the military. Okay, and that was. I graduated in May of 89, and I joined in September of 89. All right.
Speaker 2:And then why the Army? I tried the Air Force. They told me I had to wait six months in order to reapply again. I tried the Navy. The Navy didn't. I didn't like any of the jobs that the Navy offered and I wasn't going to go into the Marines, You're right. So I joined the Army. The jobs that I was offered? None of them felt appealing except patrolling a supply specialist, Okay.
Speaker 1:And that's what you. So, then, that's what you contracted for. Uh-huh, all right, yes, now you. So where'd you go to basic training?
Speaker 2:I went to basic training, fort Leonard Wood. Oh, okay, yeah, fort Lost in the Woods, very familiar with Fort Leonard. Wood.
Speaker 1:They have a great German restaurant just outside the gates, so I don't know if it was there when you were there.
Speaker 2:I was there, I wouldn't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you probably just were. So tell me about basic training Once you get there and you hop off that bus. What was that like? We?
Speaker 2:were at reception for the weekend, because we arrived on the weekend, so it wasn't. I mean, granted, we had duties that we had to do, but there was a lot of downtime because nothing was open, right, um. And then all of a sudden we were like okay, here comes the week, so I know a lot of us are going to be going out. Uh, from what my memory serves, we saw one drill sergeant and he didn't say a word. We got on what they called cattle trucks and once we got on the cattle trucks, he stood at the door and that was it. As soon as we got to our company, oh yeah, it's like all hell broke loose, right, fort Leonard Wood at that time was still all male, so we didn't see any women in the military at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because everything was still pretty well segregated between male and female at that time. So what are some of the things you remember most about basic training?
Speaker 2:Some of the things I remember most was physical training was pretty difficult and hard at times. We had really good drill sergeants my platoon. We had one private whose one of his relatives passed away and when he came back he wasn't the same. We had another one that just wasn't the same. He tried to go AWOL. What else can I remember about Fort Leonard Wood? Oh, I've never seen somebody go to sleep in a push up position until then or in other positions that the drill sergeant put them in. Or one of our drill sergeants got all the platoon in one bay and they took this other private over the same private into another bay and smoked them in full mop four gear. Yeah, uh, that's a great weight loss program, um, but the kicker about the whole thing is that we ended up getting honor platoon uh-huh we had first time, we had best pt average, we had best scores qualification, we had best overall score of end of cycle testing.
Speaker 2:And I mean we went from. They have phases white, blue, red and basic training was nine weeks long and now I think it's like 12 or 13 weeks long, but we stayed in white phase for the longest while the other platoons went into blue phase. We got into blue phase and all of a sudden we were going into red phase. So, yeah, we stayed in white for a while, but we still ended up getting on our platoon.
Speaker 1:That's pretty amazing. What a great honor to do that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Did your parents or family come down on your graduation?
Speaker 2:Yes, my mom and dad came down for graduation. Okay, how was that? It was pretty good. Yeah, yes, my mom and dad came down for graduation. Okay, how was that? It was pretty good. They've never been to that part of Missouri, I guess, so neither have I. We didn't have very much time. Okay, graduation, and then I was off the next day to Fort Lee, virginia, to do my MOS training.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so no break in between you weren't right to AIT. No, I went straight to AIT. Okay, so tell me a little about AIT. How was?
Speaker 2:that we got to AIT and we ended up being there on the weekend due to the fact that we graduated basic right before Thanksgiving. So we were like, okay, so we got in, we were in a holding company and we didn't know exactly what companies we were going to until the following week, so we didn't have drill sergeants in this holding company, but then we knew they were around, so we really didn't, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of very similar to basic training that when you first got there just kind of you're there we, uh, I got to hotel company uh at fort lee, which was at that time 77 fox trots, and that's when we started seeing females and we were like we didn't see these in basic okay. Um, we were kind of shocked at first but then everybody was like okay, you know, females had their own platoon. I was in another platoon, didn't really see our drill sergeant that much because he had another class, and later on down the road I found out why you didn't see a drill sergeant that that much, because he had another class. And later on down the road I found out why you didn't see a drill sergeant that that much because they had different classes and they had to take care of these classes graduating before they get to the next class. And so Fort Lee wasn't too bad how long were you there?
Speaker 2:I was at Fort Lee from 89 to 90. I was November to April. Okay, I think it's 13 weeks, 14 weeks long.
Speaker 1:And then, what was your first duty station after that?
Speaker 2:Well, after I got done with Fort Lee lee, I went on to fort dix, new jersey, as a advanced skill identifier driving trucks. Due to my mos of 77 fox, we had to learn how to drive trucks, okay. So I learned how to drive. A could be a tanker, 5k tanker, a semi, uh, five ton. So that was actually pretty fun. That was a little bit more lenient. We were considered. We weren't considered permanent party, but we weren't considered in training, either right or we weren't considered. So we were kind of sort of in between. There were drill sergeants, but they were a little bit more lenient. We had free time on the weekends. We didn't have GI parties like you did at BASIC or AIT, so that wasn't too bad there and that was only like five weeks long, okay. And then from there my first duty station was Okinawa, japan.
Speaker 1:Okay, how'd you like Okinawa?
Speaker 2:Oh, I loved Okinawa. I actually got to learn my job.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you really like many times people like get training, get a job, and then, because of how things work out, they end up doing something else. But you actually got to do your job. So tell me a little bit about that. In Okinawa, what kind of stuff did you do?
Speaker 2:We supplied. My battalion, supplied the whole island, along with the 7th Fleet, with fuel. Okay, it was a fixed pipeline system, so we worked on tank farms. I got to learn from the Okinawans that worked on the tank farms how to go ahead and send fuel through the lines, test fuel or get fuel out, how to scrape a line, how to go ahead and receive fuel from ships from a mooring pier, how to inspect the ships. Right before I left Okinawa, I was trained to be a ship inspector While I was at Okinawa Desert was trained to be a ship inspector While I was at Okinawa. Desert Storm, desert Shield kicked off, or Desert Shield, desert Storm. There were 12 of us that came down on orders because they were expecting a lot more casualties than what actually transpired it was a very quick war.
Speaker 2:Yes, that initial yeah, we 12 of us, we actually we had three volunteer. Those three volunteers ended up going with special force special forces groups, or units to support special forces groups, then units to support special forces groups. Then I guess they saw that hey, there's an overabundance over there, we need more of them. So 12 more of us got orders to go over there. We left Okinawa, we went to Fort Knox for training. Yes, I got to see Fort Knox again.
Speaker 1:So you went from Japan to Fort Knox for training and then you Desert Shield, desert Storm.
Speaker 2:Okay, once I got over there I had orders for 18th Airborne Corps. But we all had orders for 18th Airborne Corps, but then, once we got there, they split us up. I ended up going myself and another buddy went to 3rd ACR, 3rd Armored Cav Regiment. Once we got there I was with the transport unit. He ended up going to one of the line units. Okay, I stayed 10 kilometers off the border the whole time until after the actually, after the war is when we went over and cleaned up quite a bit of the line company's messes. I know all about Pipeline Road. I know all about Log Base, charlie, because we traveled to it constantly, charlie, because we traveled to it constantly. 30 ACR was part of that sweep that came down from the north. Yes, I saw all the maneuvering elements going through the desert, watched them go through. I know exactly where the Marines were encountered at Half Arrow, bottom.
Speaker 1:What was that like to see all that going on.
Speaker 2:As an 18-year-old, 19-year-old At first scary, yeah. But then you start thinking it's like, okay, what to do next? What happens if this? What happens if this? What to do next? What happens if this? What happens if this you're used? You start getting a mindset of what you're going to do if this happens, right, um, what will you know? What will you do if you see this? You know, as a as as young as we were, now there were veterans with us from Panama or other places. I mean, in basic, our drill sergeants scared us to bits and pieces because Panama kicked off, right, and they basically said that you're not going to your job, you're going down to Panama just because. And I'm like, oh lovely, okay.
Speaker 1:Right. Looking back on that, that didn't make any sense right? No, at the time you're like oh boy here we go.
Speaker 2:But being a veteran of a foreign war that young, it doesn't really hit you. Once we got back to Khobar Towers we were all trying to hook back up. We were all trying to hook back up and it didn't hit me until actually if I back up a little bit at Cobar Towers about six of us met back up again. We were trying to go back to our base in Okinawa. Now, these are all stateside units so they didn't want no part of us, so we kind of got through as outcasts. So we hooked up and the e5 then went with us.
Speaker 2:We finally met up with him at cobar towers. Well, he had family at travis. So we were like okay, if we could get to travis airboys air force base in california we can catch a hop to okinawa. Now, mind you, we brought our own weapons with us, right? So we couldn't, you know, we couldn't leave our weapons. So once we got a hop because we finally got a hop to Westover Air Force Base, I think in Massachusetts we're like okay, not a problem, once we get stateside we can hop. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, luckily for me, I was one of the very few that kept orders, uh, bringing us over there. So once we got to air force base and this is where hit me the most was that I was having kids come up asking me for their auto, for my autograph. And then I heard I hear Lee Greenwood song, constantly proud to be an American, and that's when it hit. I'm a veteran of a foreign war. Right From that moment on I was like I can't believe this. You know, once we got to Westover Air Force Base and we saw all this and all the welcoming and Vietnam vets welcoming us back, I was like awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we got treated pretty well when we came in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot better than Vietnam vets, and I'm glad to see that they're actually starting to get what due to them. Absolutely so, once we were there, we had to put our weapons in their armory. Well, we were able to get in touch with our battalion back in Okinawa and they basically say you can come back on the same orders you flew over there on. Okay, does anybody have a set of orders? Yeah, I still got a set. Well, one slight problem we still had weapons, and we were able to fly on civilian aircraft then, and they're like well, this is what we can do. Luckily, I had an extra duffel bag that wasn't packed all the way. So we broke down our weapons, put the bolts in one, put the weapons in the other, and we were allowed to carry them on the airplane and we flew back civilian style all the way back to Okinawa. Oh nice, so long flight, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's not a short flight at all, so how long did you stay in Okinawa?
Speaker 2:That was two years Okay.
Speaker 1:And then where from? There?
Speaker 2:I went to Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah Georgia. Uh-huh and let's see, I got there in 92. As soon as I got there I was tasked out to go to another unit for their training exercise that was just coming up on Fort Stewart. I got tasked out quite a bit when I got there, Probably within the first six months I was there. I think I saw the field four months out of that.
Speaker 1:And so this was different too, because now you're refueling vehicles and aircraft.
Speaker 2:Actually, we weren't doing any kind of refueling. Oh, okay, we were in a quartermaster battalion but working in the motor pool doing any kind of refueling. Okay, I was in a. We were in a quartermaster battalion but working in the motor pool. Okay, now we had an airfield and we had a platoon or we had a. You know, some people work in the airfield but everybody had to start in the motor pool at first. Right, we also had a tank farm and I started in the motor pool. Hurricane andrew hit, so we got uh deployed down florida for hurricane andrew. I was driving what they call an s&p trailer, five ton s&p trailer, so I was doing a lot of line hauling with that uh trash or you know, you know any kind of equipment that we could set up a what they call a ROM site or a rope. You site refuel on the move site and didn't really get to do my job. I was more okay. Preventive maintenance, checks and services constantly. Well, if you know anything about Georgia Georgia's hot during the summertime- yes, it is.
Speaker 2:So I got stationed there. Well then, hurricane Andrew hit. We spent 30 days down in Miami Homestead. Got to go on a cruise to the Bahamas. That is R&R. Got to see the Miami Dolphin cheerleaders Came back while or after we got back. Somalia kicked off Operation Restore Hope. Yeah. And we got deployed over there. Okay, I don't remember the year, it was probably 93, beginning of 93. January 93, february 93. We're over in Somalia doing water, because as a fueler you can also do water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just basically transferring liquids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a little bit more stuff to water, but at the time there wasn't any water supply units available in the United States Army, so we basically used the same kind of equipment, just a little bit different, but not too much different. Okay, so we got deployed over to Operation Restore Hope. Somalia was an eye-opener. Somalia was. If you could find a place on this earth that was the rottenest place in the world. That was probably one of them. I know there's probably other places, but Somalia was an experience. I got tasked out to being a driver, driving around a lieutenant and a civilian to go ahead and set up sites or go to meetings or whatever, all throughout Mogadishu.
Speaker 1:Not a safe place either.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. Yeah, as a driver, you don't have the luxury of trying to protect yourself. Well, I did. I ended up getting an end of a cot and I had a metal pole right next to me just in case because I couldn't use my weapon and rules of engagement over there we were. Our hands were tied Right. Weapon and rules of engagement over there we were, our hands were tied right. Um, but I've had. I had people try to come up and try to take stuff off of me and threaten me with knives and everything else. Had this one guy come up and as soon as he come up to the window, I took that metal pole and just did like whack, like that. Luckily he got his hands out of the way before I could get his hands. He cursed me out left and right In this cut V we had people trying to hop in the back, try to take stuff out.
Speaker 2:So you had to watch your back while you were traveling. Yeah, an incident happened while we were going from the city because I was leading a convoy. We're going by the Newport and an incident happened with the Marines there. We're like we're going down to the old port because that's where we were stationed, or that's where we had our unit, at right, next to the Italians. And well, the Marines told us well, if you go down this road and then take a right on this road, you'll be out of the danger zone. Okay, we listened to what they said. We took the left. Okay, we're out of danger. Then, all of a sudden, we took a right. Now I have five Humvees or're out of danger. Then, all of a sudden, we took a right. Now I have five Humvees, or five, five tons following me. When we took the right and I told the leader, I was like, sir, this isn't good. They put us right in the middle of this thing. No, we'll be okay, we'll be okay. No, sir, now, mind you, I'm only an E4 at that time, a specialist Right, and as soon as we started driving, all you started seeing were rocks flying.
Speaker 2:The second lieutenant went in and said what I want you to do is step on the gas and haul, get through this. Well, I stepped on the gas. Well, I was smart enough because I didn't want to get hit by a glass or a rock. Right, I put my Kevlar up against the window, driving like this, and I just floored it. Luckily, I didn't break anything on the vehicle, had a rock hit the hood, had a rock hit the back window, had a rock hit the the hood, had a rock hit the back window, had had a rock hit the mirror on my side. So, yeah, I was close on being rocked at that time and we made it through.
Speaker 2:But we had what they call air gunners on the back of these five tons mm-hmm. Well, they got in, they got down and they just started shooting up in the air. Go ahead and stop these people from throwing rocks. We didn't know until later what happened and apparently one of the Marines shot one of the Somalians and, yeah, all hell broke loose then. So once we got down there, our unit, our platoons, kind of sort of switched. We went from doing water to start doing fuel and water. So we ended up moving one platoon back to the airport to go ahead and start doing water and also doing fuel at the same time, because I guess one of the units and I don't remember who it was they were leaving so nobody was doing fuel. Well, that's our job, we know how to do it. Yeah, I ended up.
Speaker 2:I ended up going with another unit over and being in charge of a marshalling area that was on kind of sort of the back side of Mogadishu. It used to be a five-star hotel I actually saw a picture of it when it was actually good. Yeah, we had kids try to come in. It was a marshalling area for all units coming from the inner cities to leave in the country. Somebody I went to basic with I actually saw there. Oh, so I didn't see hardly anybody.
Speaker 2:I went to basic with after basic or AIT with after I left AIT and ASI. We all went to different units Wow, to different units. I actually saw him there. And while we were there, well, big cement wall surrounding this whole area with different guard posts up and didn't stop them from coming in, so you had to be on your toes. They'd go ahead and chip away at the cement and make a hole and get it bigger and bigger and bigger, go in there and steal stuff either. You know whatever they could steal. If you hear, if you heard a zing coming, you better be ducking because they had slingshots and they were very, very accurate with slingshots. Oh, in those, that zing that you heard was a rock flying at you. I did some, you know.
Speaker 2:One second All right, go ahead. Rules of engagement over there, they weren't all that great. We were under one command while we were there. Then NATO took, or the UN took over. So rules of engagement even actually went worse.
Speaker 2:We couldn't do any kind of harm to anybody, even if we were at harm. And did I fire my weapon at anybody? No. Did I point it at somebody? Yes, and I didn't care how old they were. It's either your life or my life and it's not going to be my life.
Speaker 2:So we had some soldiers get injured in that marshalling area because of these rocks come flying. We had them get injured because of other stuff that came flying. So I wasn't going to take a chance. They knew exactly if you did something, as in raise your weapon up, they stopped throwing rocks and you can say these were kids or adults, anywhere between the ages of five and up. Well, they don't have anything. So they were trying to get food or whatever. We had one platoon that was down the street, about a mile and a half to two miles down the street. They were right across from you know kitty corner, from one of Adid's houses, and they were getting shot at. Every night I found out I'm like no, uh-uh, I'm not playing this game. So it was our turn to leave and we got back to Georgia.
Speaker 2:About two weeks later we found out the Pakistanis got ambushed on October 21 Road. Well, I know exactly where that road is at. I traveled it constantly. It was like two miles down from where one of our platoons was working out of Right. Well, I was downtown in Savannah at a club. Next thing I see are local police, local law enforcement, coming in. Police coming in, saying all military personnel need to report back to their units. Okay, I get back to my unit, and, sure enough, that's when the Blackhawks went down.
Speaker 2:Now this was probably about a month after we left. And, sure enough, that's when the Blackhawks went down. This was probably about a month after we left. They were asking for volunteers or we asked if you know, are they taking anybody over there? 24th ID got alerted before they changed it to I think it's 3rd ID now, but 24th got alerted and we supplied 24th along with the ranger bat that was on Hunter Army Airfield. Once 24th got alerted, 12 of us volunteered to go with 24th over there to go get our people out. I know exactly where those Blackhawks went down.
Speaker 2:I traveled the city constantly. Yeah, I was one of the 12. They said, no, you're not going over there because y'all are going to take matters into your own hands. And we were like, yes, we are, because those are our people. Rules of our hands were tied. Our hands are not going to be tied. And from that moment on I'm like this is the second war or second second conflict that I'm a veteran of. No, I'm not. I'm not leaving any more fallen comrades or fallen people behind. They told us no, so we didn't go. Well, I was there from 92 to 93. November of 93, I PCS'd to Germany because I re-enlisted for Germany. That's when I actually got back to doing my job again. I was an aviation unit over in Germany and I learned quite a bit again. Yeah, I loved aviation. Aviators take care, it doesn't matter if you're a crew chief, if you're a pilot, they will take care of their own Right? Yeah, they take care of you. They need you. Mm-hmm, they're you know, we're their own Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they take care of you.
Speaker 2:They need you, mm-hmm, they're, you know, we're their bread and butter. They can't go nowhere, mm-hmm. So I had a great battalion commander. I had a great battalion sergeant major. When I first got there, I never thought of a sergeant major or a battalion commander inviting single soldiers over to their house for a holiday. And they did just that. I was like you're kidding me. No, we're going over there.
Speaker 2:I got to see a lot of Germany because I was part of a Volksmarching club you know what they call Wander, part of a Volksmarching club, what they call Wanderer, and I'd go Volksmarching every weekend, stayed in shape that way. I'd go do 5, 10, 15, 20ks a weekend, yeah. Or sometimes I'd go ahead and do 60 to 80Ks a weekend Two 20s on Saturday and another two 20s on Sunday. I had fun doing it, it was a blast. I ended up doing a marathon, what they call a 45k, and the person I went with she actually did one in about her best time was about six hours. Yeah, I did it in five and a half. Yeah, I did it in five and a half 45 Ks. If you break it down, 6.2 miles a K, is it 6.2? I think it's 6.2 miles.
Speaker 1:a K, well, 5k is 3.1 miles. Okay, so it's About 30 miles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did that in five and a half hours. Wow, I got a lot. You know, every time I went, some folks marching, I get got something from it. I had pewter shot glasses, I had mugs, uh, I had some trains. Um, I got met somebody over there, got married over there, adopted her two older and we had a daughter of our own.
Speaker 2:While I was there I ended up doing what they called Mountain Shield 1 and Mountain Shield 2, which was prepping up for Bosnia. My unit got when I was first there. We got decommissioned because they didn't want two attack helicopter battalions and one of the battalion commander of the other one was brand new and my battalion commander was actually leaving. So we went from being 4th ID to 3rd ID. No, we went from 4th ID to being 1st ID while I was over there and they didn't want two attack helicopter battalions, so we decommissioned. A lot of them went to 3-1. I went down to 7-1, which became 2-1 again. So I went because I was at first in an attack helicopter battalion Apaches. But then we went to what they call a lift helicopter Blackhawks. I got to fly in a 58. I got to fly in a Blackhawk. I refueled Apaches Galore, both hot and cold. Numerous field exercises Got to see actually what a boar looks like over there, and they're a lot bigger than the ones here. They're a lot more dangerous too, yeah, they're virtual.
Speaker 2:So while being over there, I got tasked out to being in one unit for one mountain shield and got tasked out to being in another unit for mountain shield two, and then, after prepping with those units, came back to my unit. Those units never went. My unit ended up going over there. My unit ended up going over there and I actually followed. Later, after I tried to argue and argue, my ex had the baby and that's when I went over to Bosnia, because one of the soldiers over there was PCSing or ETSing out, so they needed somebody else Went to Bosnia. When they tell you to stay on the sidewalk, you stay on the sidewalk Because if you go outside the sidewalk you may be stepping into a lot of mines or unexploded ordnance. Right, and I saw all that. Yeah, so by this time made I made e5. So I was like, okay, so now I'm another, now I'm a veteran of something else.
Speaker 2:So how long were you in bosnia, for I was in bosnia for, I think, four months okay and then you went back to germany went back to germany all right, and then how long were you in germany?
Speaker 2:I was in germany for seven years. Oh okay, uh, germany is one of those places that you could stay there, uh-huh um, and you could get lost in the system, basically, if you just keep going throughout the whole Germany. But it was my time to PCS and I'm like, okay, it's time to go. So we got their citizenship done, got their visas, and we ended up PCSing back to the States.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then where did you end up? In the States?
Speaker 2:Well, during our pcs move, 9-11 kicked off yeah and we ended up, uh, we ended up being in fort sill, oklahoma, uh-huh. Yeah, that was a field artillery unit, right? So I was the only. I was a senior patrolling supply specialist of the battalion, so and the battalion I went to was MLRS multiple launch rocket systems. Right and back in the motor pool again. Can't do anything about it, right, that's just how it is right that you know.
Speaker 2:That's how I. You know so I I spent most of my time up in the battalion with s4 and supply, because there was no need for me to be down in the motor pool. You know. So I learned the supply system, okay, um, I was in charge of all the fuelers of the battalion. Even though I had, even though they were in other batteries, I was still in charge of them. I've actually, you know, that's when we, that's when I learned how to set up ROM, a ROM site refuel on the move.
Speaker 2:So basically, we'd get out in front and I learned this out in the field We'd go ahead and set up, then all these the batteries would come through, the headquarters unit come through, we'd be the last ones to leave. Yeah, because we refueled the whole battalion. It was actually pretty fun at first, but then it got boring. Then, of course, operation Iraqi Freedom came about. I've never seen such a gung-ho lieutenant colonel just because he wants to make his full-blown colonel. And so we actually loaded up on the trains, we shipped our equipment over there, we flew over there, met our equipment over there, we sent an advance party at first. At first it was not a big thing. At first it was not a big thing, and then, all of a sudden, this battalion commander wanted to go ahead and okay, he wanted to be the first one into Baghdad. Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Well, if you know anything about war doctrine, I feel artillery fights from the back Right we got in front of maneuver three times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you're there to provide support.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, yeah, we saw we had tanks rolling through our perimeter. We had you know. It was like this is crazy. We got up to the berm and when they said it's time to go, we crossed over and I'm like my battalion not once ran out of fuel because of the efforts between myself and the S4. Right, we stayed going the whole time. Time we it's nothing, seeing an m1, a1 abrams tank dead on the side of the road and not in the fight because they don't have any more fuel.
Speaker 1:That's how fast they were going and the supply lines were two days back yeah, I don't think people understand how, during that time, we outran our supply lines in a lot of instances, yeah, so it's very important that they had those plans ahead of time.
Speaker 2:I had one tank commander come up to me and say, hey, can we get some fuel so we can get back in this? I was like you got to go ask that captain up in front, right there we ended up getting five, 5k tankers tasked out to us and these were National Guard members that were driving them and we're like we're not gonna run out of fuel. Uh-uh, I refuse to have this unit run out of fuel. As we were traveling to baghdad, um, we got stuck. We had our unit up in front the talk, and they were actually at the airport Baghdad Airport already, but we weren't sure if it was clear or not. Uh-huh, because word came down that enemy was starting to surround and come down down. We got stuck in an alley, nowhere to go, nothing to do. We were there for about four, five hours. We got there during when it was still light outside, and I went up to the front and I started listening to what everybody was saying. I'm like we need to do a recon, because we heard that enemy was trying to surround us. One grenade, one rpg hits the tanker, hits the mogas pod, it takes out the convoy right and from that moment on I'm like, look, we need to do a recon. After I said it, about an hour and a half went by okay, we're gonna do a recon.
Speaker 2:During all my other experiences and by this time I'm in the E5, I'm a leader, I'm an NCO, ncos, lead from the front I was like, look, I am not going to sit here and watch people go ahead and get killed or die on my watch while y'all are contemplating what to do next. So we finally got some people together to do a recon. I had two captains and a civilian say okay, we're going to go do a recon. I basically said, like hell, you are. They looked at me, stupid. I'm like you're not going out there without firepower. What are you going to? You got a 9mm, I've got an M16. I'm qualified in a 249, a saw. I can take that saw over there because I've positioned two guards at entry points. I can take that saw. I can give him my 16 and I'm going to take that and go with y'all.
Speaker 2:I had the supply sergeant come up. He's like no, you're not. I'm like, yes, I am. And he's like no, you're not. I'm like who's going to stop me? I'm not letting these two captains and the civilian go down that road without any kind of backup. I'm gonna stop you. No, you're not I. And then he. To this day, these words stick I'm not gonna let you go because I'm not gonna be the one to tell your family what happened to you, if anything happens. I looked at him like you're too close to retirement. I'm not gonna let you go because you're getting ready to retire and I'm not gonna be the one to tell your family that you did something what we called dumb at that time because he was too close to retirement.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So we ended up both going. We ended up making a pact right then and there that we were going to cover each other's backs and there's nothing nobody can say or do about it. I was like you don't tell my family, I won't tell yours, his wife, basically, uh-huh. I was like you don't tell my family, I won't tell yours, his wife, basically. And we ended up, you know, we did that recon with those two and we walked out and we came back there was nobody around. I did another recon of a building because I saw a red light. So I took three soldiers with me and did a recon. It ended up being some kind of a timer that puts lights on this building or whatever.
Speaker 2:So we made it to Baghdad airport. We were getting low on oil and supply lines were so far back, maintenance was getting low on stuff and it's like we need to get stuff, we need to acquisition somehow some way. So we did a recon of the airport and we found some connexes. We're like, okay, let's see if we can find anything in there. It was myself, uh, company commander, who's a captain, uh, an e6, and somebody else. They went into one building, myself and the commander went into a Connex. We started looking around. I ended up finding a box that was wet, had a wire running from it. I looked at him. I was like, sir, with all due respect, get the hell out. And pushed him out. I was like what, what, what, what, what, what? I got a box with a wire and it's wet, get out. I pushed him out.
Speaker 2:We ended up telling uh, some uh special forces people that was on the other side about what we found over there. Never knew what happened with it. Uh, later on that day, he's like, sir, you weren't going to go ahead and go up in that, conics, and neither was I. And you can go ahead and give me an Article 15 for pushing you and putting my hands on you. That's fine. He's like no, you did the right thing. When all of it was said and done, we not once ran out of fuel. All of us came back to Fort Sill. Not a single life was lost while over there.
Speaker 1:How long were you there?
Speaker 2:We were there. What five months? Okay, five and a half months.
Speaker 1:When you make it back to Fort Sill and what happens from there.
Speaker 2:I actually I did a congressional because I was in a non-promotable MOS and I wanted to go ahead and be CID, army Criminal Investigation Division, right. So I got tasked out to go work at the, or I got attached to go work at the detachment of CID over on Fort Sill. After I did a congressional and orders came down and, oh yeah, the battalion commander didn't like it. Oh well, he actually. I found out later on that he, as I was at Fort Sill, I ended up going to BNOC Basic Non-Commissioned Officer Academy at Fort Lee. So I saw Fort Lee again as I was doing my assignment at CID.
Speaker 2:I ended up getting my associate's degree and I was working on my bachelor's degree at the same time and I was close to finishing up my bachelor's. Well, some E-8 on a board somewhere said, well, no, we don't want him, even though the attachment and the MP brigade that the attachment fell under, everybody wanted me. So I ended up going back to my unit, which was kind of awkward because nobody would talk to me. No, everybody thought I was already cid and if they, all they had to do was ask are you cid?
Speaker 2:no, I'm not cid, I just did, yeah you're just, you know you know, I got you know, I got you know, tasked out over there for six months, great, great. So how long were you at Fort Sill? I was at Fort Sill from 2009 to no, from 2001 to 2006. Okay, five years.
Speaker 1:And then where? So where'd you go from Fort Sill?
Speaker 2:Well, I put in I was about to put in a packet because I'm like this is a dead-end situation. Right, I can't get promoted. Okay, I can't get to the board due to the fact of, if you're not field artillery, you're just put on the back burner, right, even though it's the support MOSs that actually support y'all. So I was in the process of submitting my recruiter packet, I came down on orders. I was like, okay, great, where am I going? Because I talked to my retention NCO. Well, you're going to Fort Lee. Well, I looked up at Fort Lee. I'm like, okay, there is permanent party there. I'm like, great, okay, fort Lee is boring, but, but you're going as an instructor, cool, okay, I get to teach what I've been taught and what I've learned to. You know private. So you're really doing your job.
Speaker 2:I'm doing my job again. I'm like great, not a problem. Well, the next day, the retention site. So I was talking to the retention and they're like, um, you're not going to that type of instructor. Yeah, what are you talking about? That's the only thing. That's the only instructors that are there. No, come to find out. I got DA selected for drill sergeant, okay, and I was like you're kidding me. Yeah, so I PCS'd. I went to Fort Lee first before my family came. I did about 30 days or two months training with drill sergeants there under their watchful eyes, before I went off to drill sergeant school. And, sure enough, I went back to Fort Leonard Wood for drill sergeant school, and drill sergeant school taught a lot. I was already a good leader, but you can become a better leader. It's all on how you phrase things, how you word things. Okay, uh, firm believer in never say never, right, never thought I'd see Fort Leonard Wood again after basic. Never thought I'd see Fort Lee again after AIT Boy, was I wrong?
Speaker 1:So you end up back at Fort Lee. So how long were you at Fort Lee?
Speaker 2:I was at Fort Lee from 2006 till I retired in 2009.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you retired as a drill instructor, okay, well.
Speaker 2:I got off the trail right before I retired. Okay, so you retired as a drill instructor? Yes, okay, well, I got off the trail right before I retired. Okay, all right, but I ended up getting my bachelor's degree and worked on my. I was working on my master's degree while I was a drill sergeant there at Fort Lee. Oh, nice, I finished up my master's degree after I retired.
Speaker 1:Okay, so talk to me about retirement. What was it like? Like that last time you put on the uniform and it was time to leave.
Speaker 2:It was different, you're so used to structure and this has this getting adapted to civilian life was like, okay, how do I do this? Yeah, you're not used to it anymore, right? And then drill sergeant actually put me on the pace of okay, you're going back to the civilian world, you can go, you know. You can, you know, relate your military background as a drill sergeant to working wherever you work next in civilian life. Well, we had, you know, our daughters were in Oklahoma, so we moved back to Oklahoma and I ended up working at the Comanche County Detention Center as a detention officer. So I worked that job from 2009 till 2015. Okay, so six years, yeah, yeah, a few years.
Speaker 1:Well, it six years. Yeah, yeah, a few years.
Speaker 2:Well, 2014. Mm-hmm, I was like I got fed up with what my ex was doing, so separated.
Speaker 1:So at some point here you split up after you got to Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, yep, okay. We separated. I tried to help somebody get out of a bad marriage but come to find out they didn't want it. So I helped them move down to Texas and I went back up or moved them back down to Texas and they couldn't figure out what they wanted. So I, during separation, I met somebody else down in of get to my sister's place to see what I'm going to do from there, kind of regroup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't want to go ahead and be a burning on my mom and dad, even though they would have loved me coming back. I'm on my own. I've been on my own. If I don't like it in Kentuckyentucky, I can always move back to michigan. Michigan still didn't. They have very many jobs, right? So I was like, okay, well, I ended up spending the night at this person's house because I was tired and I I'm like you know something, I'm not going to make it. I'll see if they'll let me stay, because I actually broke up with them. They let me stay. Well, that one night stay ended up being until now, okay.
Speaker 1:So this is how you ended up in Texas.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You never made it to Kentucky.
Speaker 2:Nope, okay, I actually have gone there to visit my sister once. Yeah, I ended up working at the school as a teacher assistant with special need kids. Well, I taught privates. I can relate my training to these kids Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know how to take care of them, what to do with this, give them some structure that kind of yeah, yeah so I did that for about two years and then, uh, I was like you know, you're not making anything doing this and the only way to make something in the education system is become a teacher, right? Well, the only thing I could teach was either military science, law enforcement or, uh, criminal law or physical education. Well, I saw the education system and I'm like, if I'm a teacher, you're not going to tell me what to do, what to give a kid a grade, and I'm sorry, no, if they don't put out, if you give them ample enough chances, they don't put out, then they fail. If you're playing simple, Right.
Speaker 2:You know, I understand the concept of never leave a kid behind, but if that kid doesn't want to put the effort in, well, I'm not going to put the effort in. I'm not letting him behind.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I could have gone and taught at college. I'm like I really don't want to, because you still have to follow a curriculum, but at least you don't have somebody telling you what to do as far as what grade to give, right, I actually I didn't see it, but heard firsthand that a teacher gave a student a failing grade and the administration changed the grade. I'm like, so that tells me you don't trust your teachers and you, yeah, and it's all about financial goals, and I'm like, nope, not going to do this. So teaching wasn't for you no.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I moved over to Walmart. I ended up stocking, working in stocking produce, the produce department, the meat department and then also in the bakery, and sometimes I went into the deli, but they kept me more in the produce and meat department, did that for a while and then I moved up to asset protection. Asset protection is where you catch thieves. I'm like, oh, right up my alley, I can do this, great, but there's still rules that you've got to follow. And all of a sudden, at this time then you started having these school shootings come up, these store shootings. So they basically were training their people. If you know an active shooter, you go run and you go hide.
Speaker 2:Run, hide, bite and we're used to shoot, move, communicate that's not what my training dictates, right, my training dictates completely something different. I'm not gonna run, I'm not gonna hide, and by the time law enforcement gets there, I'm probably going to have this individual subdued, if not taken down and de-armed. And some people didn't like my theory of thinking and I'm like I've got the background, I can take somebody out with no problem. I don't need a gun to take them out. There's enough weapons in Walmart that I can use and you blend in. You know, throw something that way. They're going to go that way. Look, you go the other way, right, so shoot, move, communicate Well, get their attention over that way. They're going to go that way. Look, you go the other way, right, so shoot, move, communicate well, get their attention over that way. You move around them and then you take care of them. And some people didn't like my way of thinking on that right.
Speaker 2:Your philosophy didn't coincide with their that's because you've never been in the military. You don't have a military mindset, right? I've got a military mindset Everywhere I go. Where's the exit? Everywhere I go. What will I do if this happens? What will I do if this happens, if somebody comes up to me with a weapon?
Speaker 1:what am I going to do to them? It's not going to be me. It really goes all the way back to sitting on that berm watching all of that happen, starting to think about what do I do, what are your contingencies? So you? This is carried through all the way up until this point.
Speaker 2:So being a veteran of foreign wars has taught me quite a bit on what to do in case of this. Right, I left Walmart and I ended up being armed security at a hospital which I am currently at now, okay, and I have the medical staff and the fellow officers I work with. They think highly of a lot of us, work with they. They think highly of a lot of us because, if something happens, patients being unruly behavioral patients granted, these are patients not allowed to touch them. They suffer from dementia or alzheimer's or any of the you know, any type of medical condition that they may have. Well, for that split second, they know exactly what they're doing. I work night shift, 12-hour shift. I love my job and a lot of the medical staff there love, you know, love me working. If something happens, they can call me, call you know, call on me, without calling some code for everybody to come up there. Hey, can you do this Sure enough? Well, I'm going to take care of it, so they can count on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And they can count on. A couple of other officers that I work with at nighttime Love the job. I can relate a lot of my experiences to it. You know I'm always like what happens if this Right, right, if there's a? You know, I've had people come up to me and say, basically you would actually take somebody's life and I'm like, let me ask you this would you like to be your life or their life? Well, my life. I'm like there's your answer.
Speaker 1:Not that you want to, but you have to do what you have to do right it's either you or them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, and it's not going to be me, right? Um, I've been trained in ways that only military veterans or military personnel would actually understand. People that have been working civilian life their whole life. They may not understand some of the training that we go through. A prime example my sister's wedding.
Speaker 2:Apparently, some people were getting drunk in the parking lot, mouthed off to a couple kids. Well, these kids ended up throwing some rocks and I walked outside. I'm like, okay, where'd they go? Well, they went down that way. So I started walking down that way and my sister came up. She's an MP, or she was an MP in the National Guard Reserve no reserve and I had somebody else. He came up drunk. I got your back. I'm like you, drunk as a skunk. You don't have my back. You have no idea what I'm capable of doing. Go back over there. I literally told him that I'm capable of doing. Go back over there. I literally told him that he actually left and went back over there. I'm like you idiot. Um, my sister came up. It's like what you're gonna do if you catch him? I'm like I'm not gonna catch him.
Speaker 2:They're long gone by now right you know, there were some railroad tracks there. They're long gone. It's dark outside. I ain't gonna to catch them, but if they see somebody starting to follow where they were at, they're not going to come back either. So I don't look for trouble and I don't find trouble. Sometimes trouble finds you. You just got to know what to do and how to handle it. Right, right, and my experiences have taught me that Well.
Speaker 1:I'd like to shift gears a little bit. Are you still married to the gal from Texas, Uh?
Speaker 2:we're not married. Uh, we're engaged, okay.
Speaker 1:So we're not married. Yes, we're still together. Very good. And what are your, what are your kids doing now?
Speaker 2:Uh, I know my oldest daughter. She is working oklahoma state bureau of investigation in oklahoma. Uh, the middle daughter is in germany. She married a military member. Um, what she's doing over there, I don't know. Yeah, the youngest daughter I don't have any contact with because of my ex. Okay, um, hopefully she'll finally come around and yeah yeah, that would be nice.
Speaker 2:um, I'm assuming, or um guessing, that she's working in with animals. Um, last thing I heard is that they were raising, or what's the word. I'm looking for Not raising, but breeding. Thank you, rottweilers. Okay, so she wanted to be a veterinarian or work with animals? So that's the last thing I heard.
Speaker 1:Well, hopefully she's doing that.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, so do I.
Speaker 1:So we've covered a lot of ground. You've done a lot of things in your life. I just really have one more question for you, okay, and that is someone listening to this. Years from now maybe, when neither one of us are here anymore, what message would you like them to take away from this conversation and really how you lived your life? This?
Speaker 2:conversation and really how you lived your life. Listen to those that raised you, follow Well, I'm not going to say follow, but kind of look into their footsteps, walk in their footsteps. Follow your instincts. It's your gutting, your instincts, in which I'm a firm believer, in both of them, that's going to get you through life and get you through hard times. If you second guess your gut, you're going to second guess your life. I've had an enjoyable life. I've had an enjoyable life. I've had great experiences.
Speaker 2:If you do join the military, listen to your veterans. Your veterans are going to get you through whatever is to come. I've had lots of veterans that I've actually listened to and they got me through quite a bit and you know we got through each other. I work with quite a bit of veterans and I like listening to their stories. They like listening to mine. One of those veterans he was sf during Vietnam. I know exactly what he does, even though he doesn't say it, because as a veteran, you've got that same mindset. I came in on the tail end of the old army and the beginning of the new army. This new way can't stand. It don't like. It never will Needs to go back to the old way.
Speaker 1:All right, well, thanks for sharing that. Thanks for taking time out on a Thursday morning to talk with me. You're welcome.
