Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
Veterans Archives is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information. www.veteransarchives.org
Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
Tactical Wisdom: David Dorrier's Journey from Air Force to Entrepreneur
What happens when a military veteran who's spent decades teaching others to communicate finally learns to truly communicate himself? David Dorrier's journey from the shores of Long Island to Air Force logistics specialist, radio broadcaster, and eventually public speaking coach reveals profound lessons about resilience, adaptation, and the courage to evolve at any age.
Born in 1956, David's story begins with a childhood marked by both idyllic seaside adventures and challenging family dynamics. His early fascination with radio broadcasting foreshadowed a career path that would intertwine with his military service in unexpected ways. After enlisting in the Air Force in 1975, David's 28-year military career (10 years active duty, 18 years reserves) took him around the world, from Guam to Korea, Saudi Arabia to Turkey, each assignment building skills that would later prove invaluable.
Throughout our conversation, David candidly shares how his personal struggles with communication contrasted sharply with his professional expertise. Despite outward success teaching others to communicate effectively, he battled inner demons and maintained emotional walls that affected his relationships. Perhaps most compelling is his recent decision, at age 68, to attend a PTSD program for veterans—a transformative experience that helped him understand the metaphorical "shell" he'd built around himself that no longer served his growth.
David's story powerfully illustrates that it's never too late to heal, change, and discover your authentic voice. His wisdom resonates beyond veterans, speaking to anyone who's ever felt stuck in patterns that once protected them but now limit their potential. As he poignantly observes, "Everything I need is already inside me"—a truth that awaits discovery for us all.
Today is Tuesday, July 29th 2025. We're talking with David Dorrier, who served the United States Air Force, so welcome, David.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you so much for inviting me to be here, Bill.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure and it's a pleasure to finally meet you, as we said before the recording. So, david, I'm going to start out super simple when and where were you born? Super?
Speaker 2:simple when and where were you born? When was I born? November 25th 1956. I was born in Bayshore, new York, but did all of my growing up in Babylon, long Island, new York.
Speaker 1:Well, so tell me about growing up in Long Island.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think, like many folks, is not realizing how good you have it Growing up on the shores of the great South Bay, having a boat in the family, going out and clamming and crabbing and fishing and water skiing and just a hop skip and a jump over to Fire Island and Jones Beach. And you know you kind of take it for granted until you're not in a place like that. You know you kind of take it for granted until you're not in a place like that.
Speaker 2:It's, uh, it was it was fun, but it was also challenging as a kid as well, right, somebody wrote a song about fire Island, didn't they? I'm sure I'm sure they have movies and, uh, I'm sure there's songs.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, so did you have brothers and sisters growing up?
Speaker 2:I did. I'm the oldest of five. We were very close in age. I have two brothers, Mark and John, and then I have twin sisters, Sharon and Karen. They're the youngest.
Speaker 1:So almost a baseball team Almost Now. As kids did you guys do a lot together. Were you fairly close in that respect?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a great question. No, not really. It was very competitive in the family. We were great when we would go out as a group and visit other families and my mother would even get compliments Boy, your kids are so great. But as soon as we got back in the car or as soon as we got home, we were killing each other.
Speaker 1:Did your mom kind of want to know where those kids went, the ones that were being great?
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, yes, so, speaking of your mother, tell me a little bit about her.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, great question years of therapy and uh, and a variety of other things, learning about my mother and growing up and and, and learned about why the trauma came into my life as a kid and so on. That my it. It came from a narcissistic mother of um. So you know, I don't know where else to start. However, I should have started with the things that I learned. You know, I learned, please, and thank you from my mother. I also learned how to cook from my mother.
Speaker 2:I was the oldest of five and she was working, my father was working and she was just tired of walking in the door. You know, as kids, we don't realize this. You know, here's mom walking in the door. The first thing out of my mouth was when are we going to eat? And not realizing until I was an adult, being in the workforce myself and understanding what it was like working eight or six or 10 hours a day, and then coming home and after all that and the first thing you hear is this kid, when are we going to eat? So she taught me how to cook and how to prepare things, but and I'm thankful for that, because today I love to cook and today, you know, please and thank you as a part of my, as a part of my repertoire, so I'm thankful for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, even in the most difficult situations, right, there's always something to be gained from it. I think, what about your father? You said he worked a lot.
Speaker 2:My father was very industrious. My father started his own business with five kids and I'm sure it was tough. And when I'm asked about my father, my first reaction is I really didn't know him. He died in the early 80s. He was only 54 years old at the time. I was already in the service at that point I was in Guam, so I had to fly home from Guam and I'm standing over the coffin saying to myself I don't even know this guy. In some ways I felt I was afraid of him in some ways, but he worked hard.
Speaker 2:I should also say about my father. The funeral director said that he has never seen so many flowers in his life. So that said something to me about my father, about his reputation outside of the family. He had very high regard and and and and I also learned some things from one of his best friends years and years after my father passed that I could tell that my father had a good heart, was very compassionate, but at home it was very different so a lot of people knew him, but you did exactly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So do you think maybe you got your work ethic from him though?
Speaker 2:I think we all did, we for the most part. I have that entrepreneurial spirit. Even when I was in the military I've always felt that I've had that entrepreneurial spirit. My brother John, he, he took over the business from my father and he's been very successful. My other brother, mark, business from my father, and he's been very successful. My other brother, mark, he's also six. We are all five of us are very successful in our own ways and I think we we have adopted some of that entrepreneurial spirit from my father.
Speaker 1:So it begs the question do you think it's nature or nurture? Do you think it's in your DNA to be entrepreneurial, or do you think it's something you learned from your dad or somewhere in between I?
Speaker 2:think it's somewhere in between. We never sat down and said this is how you do it, this is what you do, this is how you start, this is what you think about. I didn't go to business school, or my brother John did, but uh, I I think it's in the DNA.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right. Well, let's uh, let's shift gears and talk a little bit about school. What was school like for you growing up?
Speaker 2:I didn't like school, I liked working and I still feel that way today. I learned best by just doing it, by getting out there, making the errors, doing some research I'm not a book reader, doing some research I'm not a book reader when it came. I spent years in working in technology and the way that I learned was just dive into this piece of software and see what happens when I click this, what happens when I click that. It's just learning. I've learned by the seat of my pants. I've gone to the Dave D School of Hard Knocks.
Speaker 1:Sometimes the best place to get your diploma. So was there anything, though, at school that you enjoyed doing, like? What were some of the things that brought you joy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that's a great question. When I was in 11th grade in high school, my English class for that semester focused on media and radio television broadcasting. Again, we're talking. I graduated high school in 75, so we're looking at 72, 73, somewhere in that area.
Speaker 2:But I grew up with a fascination with radio broadcasting. I had a transistor radio underneath my pillow whenever I went to sleep. The radio was always on. We had two local stations there on Long Island that I would listen to all the time and also, you know, some big powerhouse stations coming out of New York City WABC, wnbc and so on. But radio was just a fascination for me.
Speaker 2:So that one year, that one semester in English class I know, I got an A and that was something very rare. And me and another student we put together a mock radio show of some sort because we had to do some sort of and we had a. We were all tasked with doing some sort of a skit of some sort and I just loved it. And at that same time I went down to the local radio station. They were offering Columbia School of Broadcasting there at the station and I had to take a test, like an ASVAB test almost to come in and I didn't score quite high enough on the test, so I couldn't go into the school. But eventually radio broadcasting did eventually become a big part of my life.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so when I think about radio, so at that time you had some really good rock and roll stations. So at that time you had some really good rock and roll stations, but you also had some other talk radio that was around, usually on AM stations, I guess. So what attracted you? Was it the music stations or was it talk stations, or was it kind of a mix?
Speaker 2:It was all music stations and I don't know what it was about it and when I know, when I was very young and listening, I thought all these bands were in this huge building. This radio station had this huge building and every floor had different bands on it and just said, okay, you play, you play, you play. Uh, there was just something about that medium. And I was also fascinated with with old time radio, with the old radio shows the War of the Worlds, with what's his name, the director that he had the radio show. I think it was back in the 30s where the Martians were coming to New Jersey and so on, just the old radio plays. I was fascinated with those.
Speaker 1:Okay, so even going way back, um, just curious, on the rock and roll front, this like completely has nothing to do with the conversation. You remember don kershner's rock concert?
Speaker 2:yes, I, I think, don, I know, yes, I do. Yes, and I don't know if armed forces radio had it, but I know I heard it over in Guam. But yes, I'm very familiar with it. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it used to be on late night. It was the last show that was on before all the channels went out, so that's how I remember that. So you make it through school. I'm assuming you get your diploma.
Speaker 2:I graduated by the whiskers on my chin. Yes, I don't know if I would make it through school today, but I did. I graduated. I did get left back in the fourth grade. A couple of things happened in fourth grade. I got glasses for the first time and I'm sure I deserved to get left back. But I did get left back one year.
Speaker 1:So your eyesight impacted you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't get glasses until I was in the fourth grade. The doctor wondered how I didn't get hit by a car walking across the street. We figured it out. I was at a baseball game. I was at a Yankee game with my father and my brothers and I kept asking my father what's the score? What's the score? And he says the scoreboard's right there. It's right there, and I can't see it. I can't see it. And so he finally came home and said listen, june, my mother, you better bring this kid to get his eyes checked. And I still remember to this day when I put on those glasses for the first time and I'm in the room and there's all these diplomas and what have you on the wall? And I'm seeing all of this stuff for the first time. It was just unbelievable how it opened things up wow, I never really looked at that way.
Speaker 1:I mean, my eyesight has steadily gotten bad, but I didn't have that moment like that. That's incredible. Yeah, all right, so did you. You know, I always ask kind of did you play any sports or anything like that in high school?
Speaker 2:no, no, we played baseball with the kids in the neighborhood with in the park across the street. But no, uh, no, no organized sport. Well, little league, I played that okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Oh, by the way, orson wells is the name you were looking for.
Speaker 2:Orson Welles yes.
Speaker 1:It took me a minute. Yeah, I think it was like 1938 or something like that, that they did that stuff Anyway. So I digress. So you make it through school, though you get your diploma. It's 1975. What's next?
Speaker 2:Well, interesting, at this point I wasn't thinking about the military. I was working for a company at the time, a warehouse company. However, a couple of years prior to this, I did try to get into the Air Force. At that time you could go in without a high school diploma, as long as your parents would sign. I was under 18, I guess 16 or 17, whatever I was at the time. Uh, but you still had to take the ASFAB test. But you had to score higher on it and I didn't score high enough on the ASFAB test to be allowed in. So I did.
Speaker 2:I finished high school, I was in working for a company and then the company moved out of state and I had to figure out what am I going to do? So I said, well, I'm going to go and talk to the talk to the recruiter. So I originally went down to the Navy Now originally went down to the Coast Guard because I thought it was cool, I want to work at the Coast Guard station over on Fire Island, right, and uh, uh. But. But the coast guard said no, we got, cause they're so small. He said, no, we got two, we got a year, year and a half waiting list to get in. I said I don't want to wait that long, I don't want to go in the Navy. Even though I grew up on the water, I'm saying to myself, I don't even know how to swim. I got, I don't want to deal with the Navy, so I went down to the Air Force and uh, yep and that's. I went in with a guaranteed job.
Speaker 1:Okay and um, what was that experience like for you? Uh, you took the ASVAB, you went to to the enlistment station, right, all the physical and everything Right. And then, um, what, what job were you offered?
Speaker 2:I, I, uh, volunteered uh for air, air transportation, air cargo. Uh, the AFSC at that time was 605. They changed it to two T two, but it was air logistics, loading everything and anything that you can fit onto anything that flew.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what was the? What was the timing between enlistment and actual going to basic training?
Speaker 2:I was on delayed enlistment for eight-ish months.
Speaker 1:I think, okay, and how was that? As I know, I was in delayed enlistment for a while myself when I joined the military. How was that for you, like that period of time where you're kind of in limbo maybe?
Speaker 2:Yeah, period of time where you're kind of in limbo maybe. Yeah, Well, I was on unemployment at the time because the job that I was working at left which entitled me to get unemployment, and I was able to stay on unemployment without any issues for that entire time, because I would go in and just tell them I'm going in the air force and here's my date, that I'm going in. So I, I was making this money. My parents let me stay at home. They didn't charge me any rent because they knew I was going to. I was going and I was just. It was, it was party time.
Speaker 1:Eight months of no responsibility, almost.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Nice, well, talk, talk to us a bit about, uh, basic training and what it was like to arrive there. What, what, what are your first impressions of that?
Speaker 2:Great question. Uh, it's well, I can still visualize it. It's like anybody that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's changed. Your world changes, but I felt that I adapted well. I adapted well to the, to the regime, the regiment, the, the knowing when to wake up and when to go to bed, and what you're going to do here and what you're going to do there. I stumbled like every kid, I I naturally I have one leg a little shorter than the other, so I was called the duck, because whenever we marched I always waddled a little bit from side to side. I didn't realize that I did that until I was in the service. I felt that I adapted well. Prior to going into service. I was a loner. I didn't really socialize with folks. I had. I had things going, voices in my head and so on, but all of that kind of lifted when I got there and I just fit in.
Speaker 1:It was, uh, just kind of a natural thing for you then, huh.
Speaker 2:To a certain extent, even though that that you know, learning about myself as years go by, I kind of beat to a, beat to a different drum a little bit, but I, I kind of do things my own way, but I, I liked it.
Speaker 1:I, I loved the service, I loved my time in the service well, talk to me a bit about, like, if you, if, if you know, you know if you just encountered someone, and you're talking about your military time. What do you remember most about basic training? Is there something during basic training that pops into your head?
Speaker 2:So, um, uh, that's a great question. It's just, it just had a feeling to it. It just it, just uh, it also had a smell to it. It just it, just uh, it got. It also had a smell to it. These brand new uniforms put and the new t-shirts and and the barracks we were in the if folks were familiar with the Air Force Lackland Air Force Base, they, we were in the old barracks. Uh, they had these new ones, but we were in these old World War II barracks. Two story but it to me it had a smell, uh, the smell of new green fatigues now.
Speaker 1:Do you ever like, do you ever smell that now and it takes you like right back. Do you ever encounter something that's similar to that and it just kind of takes you right back to that moment?
Speaker 2:I, I, uh, I don't know if I have that smell. There are smells that makes me think of my father, not specifically my father, but what my father did working with blacktop, and whenever I hear or smell that tar and diesel fuel, that reminds me of the vehicles my father had and also the blacktop and the seal coating that he did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting how that can happen. Same with music, too. Right, there's songs that take you right back. Yes, you probably have a million of those. So you get through basic training. And for the Air Force, how long was it at that time?
Speaker 2:Six weeks.
Speaker 1:Okay. And then what happens at the end of six weeks? Six weeks, okay.
Speaker 2:And then what happens at the end of six weeks? At the end of six weeks, then it's off to your school. Well, I knew, going into basic training, what my job was going to be with air transportation. I may not have known where the schoolhouse was going to be. So after basic then they put us on a bus, sent us up to Shepard Air Force Base, which is up in Wichita Falls.
Speaker 1:Texas, okay, and you went there to learn how to do the basics of your job then yeah, air transportation, and I think that was about seven weeks. Okay, and was that? Did that? Did that feel more like an extension of basic training, or was it a little bit more freedom? How did that work out for you?
Speaker 2:it is a lot of freedom they had. Uh, this was uh, this was 1976. They had beer vending machines I remember those david.
Speaker 1:I remember beer vending. It's like 75 cents or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was not. I've never been a really big beer drinker or drinker in period, but yes, I never bought one out of the vending machine. It was like night and day. Yeah, there were restrictions as far as you had a roommate, I guess you had to be at certain places at certain times, but it was very relaxed. Yeah, yeah, and then so you get done with that.
Speaker 1:You had to be at certain places at certain times, but it was very relaxed. Yeah, yeah and then uh. So you get done with that. Where? Where was your first duty station then?
Speaker 2:First duty station was Anderson air force base Guam.
Speaker 1:Okay Now. Did you go home at all in between all of this?
Speaker 2:I did. I went home and it happened to be around Thanksgiving by the time I did go home. I went home for 30 days and things at home, even though I was only away for a couple of months at basic training, the six weeks and then the seven weeks at tech school. Just being away for that period of time, it seemed like everything changed. People that I knew were doing other things and so on and so forth. It was I probably shouldn't have been home for a full 30 days. I think I wore out my welcome. My parents were ready for me to go by the time those 30 days were up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, were you ready to go? I mean, 30 days does seem like a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, I think I was ready to go. I I was. Yeah, I think I was ready to go. I was ready for this adventure. I'm ready to. I'm on my way across the other side of the world. I was going to be. You know, flying on planes was brand new basic training first time on a plane. Coming home after tech school, again new to plane. And now I'm going to go to California, travis Air Force Base, catch a flight out of Travis to take me all the way over to Guam. I mean, I think, if anything, I was pretty excited at this point.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'll bet. So talk to me about Guam. I mean, how was that? How was the trip over? And then what was it like when you got there?
Speaker 2:I remember that we were on a DC-8. It seemed like the flight was going to take forever because it's, if you're familiar with, from California to Hawaii it's five hours and then from Hawaii to Guam is seven hours. So it seemed like it took forever. But by the time we got there it was it was New Year's Eve morning. It was very early in the morning on new year's eve, 1976. Because of the international date line, I never saw december 29th. I think it was december 29th or december 30th. I never saw that day, so somebody owes me a day it took a whole day away.
Speaker 1:Lucky you weren't flying. Lucky you weren't flying on your birthday. It lost that.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Guam on New Year's Eve day. Talk to me about that.
Speaker 2:Uh, it was the again, I guess smells really stand out. If that that smell of that, that heat and the jungle of the humidity which you can cut with a knife, it was just very. I still remember that it's almost, in a way, can take your breath away that humidity, if you're not used to that. I love Guam. I love the beach Guam is. I mean, it's surrounded by beach. It's 36 miles by six miles. At its widest point there is a beach on the base. Tele, uh, telefofo, telefufu, telefofo, something like that. There's a, there's a beach on the base. I had I was working swing shift so I had every morning to go to the beach. Uh, I was black when I. There's pictures of me when I came home on leave. I spent a lot of time in the sun.
Speaker 1:That sounds really nice. So tell me about your job there. What were you doing and what was it like kind of being the new guy, and just let's talk through that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so got there as a slick sleeve. I had no stripes. But by the time I got there and, yes, being the new guy, there were a couple of other new guys with me at that same time, so we were all kind of working through this together. But I know, my first day in the barracks, I was welcomed, I created friendships. There's one guy that I'm still in touch with to this day, harley. He lives up in Maine and we stay in touch with one another. So I created some good friendships this day, harley, he lives up in Maine and we stay in touch with one another. So there, um, so I created some good friendships.
Speaker 2:I I eventually got a car, a Guam bomb, while I was there, and so I was the popular guy in the barracks that are with our little group of guys and driving down to the beach, driving downtown, going to the fancy hotels and what have you, and I just loved it. I loved my job. We were kind of an in-transit station from flights coming from the Pacific, coming from the Orient, going back to the States and from the States going across. So there's a lot of in-transit stuff and certainly cargo coming off to replenish the supply there in Guam.
Speaker 2:But I loved working around planes. I should have said, even as a kid, that smell of jet fuel, of those infrequent times that we would drive past Kennedy Airport and you could smell that fuel, or driving into the airport for whatever reason, that smell of the fuel. And I just loved the planes and the size of them. And here I was working on a flight line, working around airplanes. The smells, the sounds, the you know everything about those planes. I just loved it the C5, the 141, eventually the C17 and the C130. Flying on those planes and loading them is just.
Speaker 1:I just loved it yeah, c130, that's a an interesting. I flew a lot on c130s when we were overseas. But you're right, there's a there's a smell, a distinctive smell to that, absolutely, but it sounds like a wonderful experience. How long long were you in Guam?
Speaker 2:I was in Guam this time. I was in Guam three separate times. This first time I was unaccompanied, so I was there for 15 months, and after Guam I was supposed to go to Sardinia, italy. I had orders to go to Sardinia. The day that they were coming to pick up my household goods or my baggage from my room, I got a call from personnel, I guess, and they said your orders have been canceled. Where do you want to go? And I said well, I want to go to the Philippines or Korea. So I ended up going to Korea after Guam.
Speaker 1:Okay, and how was that? What was Korea like for you?
Speaker 2:Uh, to me, I, I, I, I loved all the places I went to, for a variety of reasons. Uh, korea, uh, just the well. First of all, that's the weather. The weather was very similar to what I remember from New York those hot, sticky summers and the cold, wet winters. I love the topography. I love traveling, getting on the bus, going on a train, traveling throughout the country. People were very cordial. I didn't eat a lot of the exotic foods. I love the bulgogi and rice and I like kimchi. I love kimchi. Uh, so I, I, I, I liked Korea.
Speaker 2:So you really assimilated kind of into the culture to a certain extent, because I and then I eventually married a Korean woman and we were married for seven years.
Speaker 1:Okay, was that on this tour that you met her? Yes, okay, do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yes, uh, so at that time in Korea there were, um, there were many women that were Korean women that were looking for, um, american men to marry and so on, and uh, I, I, I was never, very, very, I did not have a lot of experience with women up to that point, and girlfriends, and really had no experience and thought that, no matter who I marry, it's going to be a perfect situation. She did speak English very well, more so than others, and she dressed very Western and I was 20 years old at the time. And you think that no matter who you marry, it's all going to just be just like the movies? Of course it wasn't like the movies and it took work and, yeah, it just didn't work out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so did she come back to the States with you then?
Speaker 2:Yes, so we were married for seven years. So after Korea I was then stationed in Homestead, florida. So she was with me at that point. I guess she wasn't an American citizen yet. No, but I think she had to have some sort of a visa. After Homestead Florida we went back to Guam. Now it was my second tour on Guam and during that time she got her citizenship. While we were on Guam that second time, Okay, did you have any children? No kids.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So anything stick out in your mind about being stationed in Florida before you went back to Guam?
Speaker 2:Well, I loved it down. We were in Homestead down there in Southern Florida. One of the things that surprised me was well, it was a lot of swampland down there during the summer months. Those mosquitoes are biting right through your uniform. It was crazy. The winter I was kind of surprised. Not that it got cold At times, it got cold enough overnight where there'd be kind of a film of ice on the windshield. It would very quickly melt away. But I was surprised that it would be get cold enough to have that little bit of ice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's kind of surprising. So you, uh, you leave there, you go back to Guam. Now, now you're married, it's an accompanied tour. Accompanied tour. Um, how was that different from the first time you were there?
Speaker 2:well, now I've got a base house, I have a two-bedroom home. It was absolutely beautiful. I was there now because it's accompanied. It's now a three-year tour, um, so I guess it's. It's it's just now the, the family life and having a home together. And and while we were in homestead florida, we had a very tiny little apartment, but now we had this huge house wow so living, living the life.
Speaker 1:You're still going to the beach at this time, and all that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a little different this time. I wasn't the single guy. I wasn't hopping in the car, going here, going there, like it was before. A lot of it to me was also learning how to be a husband, learning how to be a spouse, learning how to be accountable to someone else. I grew up being that loner of not talking to people, not communicating, not learning about how to treat women and how to start relationships and how to talk. So those were a lot of struggles. However, with that said, it was on. This second tour on Guam is when I got started in radio broadcasting, part-time, off-base at a rock and roll AM station.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, talk to us a little bit about that, and how did that come about?
Speaker 2:That's an interesting, that's a great story I love telling. This story is uh, there was a guy that was in the building where I was working on base and he was working part-time for the radio station and I told him I'll do anything, I'll file records, sweep the floors, whatever it takes, just to get my foot in the door. Because I still had this fascination with radio when I was in Korea. I went down to the local armed forces station there on Osan and at that time they had they were producing one or two local shows and I went down to audition to do one of these local shows and he put me in the studio, put a microphone in front of me, gave me a script and said read this. And up to this point I had no on-air experience, no training at all, and he said I don't have enough time to work with you. So I kind of gave, I gave it up at that point. But now this opportunity in Guam.
Speaker 2:So I went down to the radio station with this guy one time and he was this was back with records queuing up a record, putting, putting uh the reel to reels and bringing in the CBS news at exactly the top of the hour following this music wheel, use the 45s and the albums and the library of music, and reading all of your dials, because you also had to log what the transmitter was doing you had to do that on an hourly basis and your commercials and so on and the board. You have a board in front of you with dials and switches and all this other stuff and it just came very natural to me. I think it's that logistical mind. I ended up in a logistics career field where you have planes coming in at a certain time, they have to be on the ground for only a certain amount of time and have to be in the air at a certain time before there are delays and people having to answer why did this happen?
Speaker 2:So my mind was always kind of like that I can picture in my mind of the plane coming in, of what we had to download and what we had to upload and getting things staged. And radio was kind of like that of where are my hands, what's coming up next? What do I have to do? Where do I have to plan? How many records in advance do I need to have pulled out? So I'm prepared along the way.
Speaker 1:So it came very natural to me okay, all right, and that makes sense it all. It almost sounds like an engineering component to it, though, right yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Back in those days it was very labor intensive radio. You had to plan your bathroom breaks appropriately and hope to god that the record doesn't skip it's funny you say that, um, but yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean that's what a great experience though, what a great way to kind of break into it with, uh, very little downside and a ton of upside right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I uh, I guess I didn't finish the story. I went down and visited down there and then, less than a week later, the program director called me and he says hey, I had this guy quit, do you want a job? Uh, and so I started working Saturday nights from six to midnight, and then again Sunday from noon to six, and from on Saturdays, six to nine, I babysat a three hour canned program. It was Gary Owens soundtrack of the sixties. Do you remember Gary Owens?
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:From from, he's. The guy from laughing is was the announcer with his hand over his ear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, gary.
Speaker 2:Owens. It was a great program, but it was also a great way for me to learn, because you're it's. The program would come on a record and so you'd have to queue it up at the beginning of that segment. It would play the national commercials. Then you'd have to stop it, play the local commercials and whatever else needed to be played locally. But you're also looking at the clock. You're also making sure that. Are we going to get right there to the top of the hour? Because at the top of the hour I had to bring in the CBS news news feed live, and so that was. You know it's, it's. Oh, I love that planning of figuring it all out. You know what do I got to do to make sure I get there?
Speaker 1:right, well, and you want to. You don't want to get there too soon and you don't certainly don't want to get there too late exactly right, yeah, and so how long did you do that? How long were you on guam and then how long did you do the broadcasting?
Speaker 2:So radio broadcasting was a part of my life for 15 years. I guess. I spent about two years on Guam working radio. I was there on Guam for a total of three years Two, two and a half years I guess I was doing it and so I knew that well. I left Guam that second time and I was going to Travis. So before I left, before I left Guam, I was sending out air checks. I was sending out cassettes with a sample of my voice and a resume to a bunch of radio stations in that, uh, travis is there between San Francisco and and and Sacramento in that area, and I I we got there, my wife and I got to Travis. We checked into the building I had just I hadn't even started my in processing yet and I called the local station right there in Vacaville and he says hey, we've been waiting for you, come on down, we got a job for you. So I was on the air at that radio station before I started my in processing into into the base.
Speaker 1:That's. That's an incredible story all by itself, right there, yeah.
Speaker 2:You really had the part-time you really had the bug, then I mean that's yeah, I did, I, I was, uh, I was very motivated, very driven, uh, I. There were more than there were other occasions where I was buckling down, putting out my resumes, putting out tapes and so on, and uh, I stayed in radio, stayed in radio, uh, and you know, this period was part-time, but then I went into full-time radio. I came off active duty at Travis in 1986. Um, or whatever, it was 84, 86, I forget. But I came off active duty. The Air Force had a program called Palace Chase which, uh, you can come off your your, you can get out of your orders or your your enlistment early. You just have to serve double the time in the reserves. Okay, so I, I came off active duty after 10 years, went into the reserves, did spend a total of 18 years in the reserves after that, but I wasn't going to give up those 10 years active duty.
Speaker 1:No, I don't blame you. I don't blame you at all. So you were just two years shy of retirement then from the military when you got done.
Speaker 2:Well, 10 years, I was 10 years active. Right and, and then 18 years in the reserve oh, 18 years.
Speaker 1:My, I'm sorry, I I misunderstood. I thought you said eight.
Speaker 2:I was like oh yeah, I was like you're this close. Yeah, yeah, no, 18, it was a total of 28 years.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay and so this. So, at this time, when you're still married, um was your wife supportive of your radio ambitions?
Speaker 2:Not really, and it was evident when it was getting close to those 10 years where I wanted to get out. I was looking for jobs. I was even offered a couple of jobs. I was offered a job up in Crescent City, california, which is right on the coast, right pretty much on the Oregon border, just absolutely beautiful up there. They offered me a job and my wife was not. This is my wife from Korea. She was not supportive. She wanted me to stay in the military. I ended up re-enlisting uh, uh, uh. About a year. My enlistment was coming up at about nine years or eight, whatever years at that point and so I ended up because of her, I ended up re-enlisting. Well, a year after that I I got a divorce and that's when I did the palace chase.
Speaker 1:After that, Okay, all right. What was it like for you to come on well, this is so when I usually when I ask this question, uh, I think the answer is a little different, but you were really kind of assimilating into civilian life anyway. But what was it like for you to come off from active duty and now you're you're done with the full-time military and now you're in the civilian world. How was that for you?
Speaker 2:Well, you're right, I was very fortunate because, yes, these radio jobs were part-time, but I also had other part-time jobs. When I was in Florida, I was delivering newspapers in the morning. I didn't have to be to work until noon every day, so I was delivering newspapers early in the morning. I didn't have to be to work until noon every day, so I was delivering newspapers early in the morning. I was also had a. Before I had the radio job in California I was also doing some some well, no, I forget, yeah, but I did the. Yeah, I did the newspapers in Florida, in Florida. So I had these, these part-time jobs when I was air force. So the transition, the weirdest part of it was I went, I was in the same career field uh, air transportation, active duty, and then air transportation in the reserve. So one of my first weekends of reserve duty was working in the same office where I was working active duty at Travis.
Speaker 1:Now we're some of the same people there. Oh yeah, oh boy, how was that?
Speaker 2:You know. So it was good. But I remember how I was as an active duty person, when the reservists would come in for the weekend, and how we treated those reservists on the weekend. You know, think. You know, look at these, they're just here. They're just here doing their time. They're not doing anything, they're not volunteering, they're not doing this or doing that. You know, they always had a bad rap. But you know, realizing that these guys are only doing it one weekend a month, they're not living this, they don't live this job like we do active duty, so to think that they could just walk in here and just just take over the place was ridiculous. So now, as a reservist, I'm kind of feeling that at times, from not from the folks that I had worked with, but when, throughout my years, when I would go TDY or when I would do my annual tour at Dover or Charleston or or Japan or wherever it happens to be, you know, I'm sensing that same kind of anxiety coming from those active duty guys. Oh, here are the stupid reservist again.
Speaker 1:Right. It didn't take the time to understand that you'd done some time active duty, right? They just assumed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just assume you're just some guy.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a great way to give you some perspective, huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so 18 years on the reserves, that's quite an accomplishment. That's a long time, and so were you working mostly in broadcasting then during that period. So were you working mostly in broadcasting.
Speaker 2:Then during that period For a good portion of that time I was so I started in the reserves at Travis. I was working full-time radio while I was at uh outside of Travis at the station in Vacaville. I then um took a job outside of radio for a little bit and I said I got to get back into radio, I can't. I started working for one of the large shipping companies out of Oakland, california, and I was just just absolutely miserable.
Speaker 1:So I I picked up the phone one day and I called over.
Speaker 2:I called the Guam. So I picked up the phone one day and I called over. I called the Guam. I knew that they were going to be opening an FM station. The group that I worked for over there was they were building an FM station and I called them up and they said, hey, we were thinking about you. Do you want to come back? And I said sure. And I said, well, we'll pay for your airfare and for half of your personal belongings to get over here. I was working for a ship line company at the time and this was the company that also was shipping all of the military folks, their vehicles, over to the Pacific. And so I went to my boss and I said, hey, can I? Because most of those ships would go over to the Pacific empty because they would come back full of stuff from the Orient. So I said, well, can I put my truck on that ship that's going over to Guam? They said sure, so I got my truck sent over there for free.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a good price. Yeah, exactly. For free well, that's a good price. Yeah, exactly. And I'm you know, I'm sure that the, uh, the, the, a company like that, probably really appreciated your knowledge and and all that you'd learn from the air force. Again, it was a nice, national, natural transition into that work. So they I'm guessing they kind of missed you when you left the, the ship line company yeah well, uh, I'd like to think that, but I'm not sure I it.
Speaker 2:It is a very different world when you're working with unions yeah uh, I remember one time I came in kind of I had a clash with a union leader.
Speaker 2:There were we would get these containers coming off the ships and we had several containers that were full of cars, maybe Toyotas, but they were trying a new way of loading them in the container where they could kind of stack them on top of each other in this container, which created a lot of wood that they had to build up underneath these vehicles, created a lot of wood that they had to build up underneath these vehicles, and so they were starting to pull out these vehicles and there was a lot of wood that was kind of laying on the ground and I started moving some of it away and the union leader says, okay, that's it, we're leaving. And, uh, because if, if this guy's going to do the work, that our work, then we're out of here. And I was like holy crap, you know, I'm just thinking, I'm just a guy just kind of helping out, they're getting ready to pull it out of the thing and I wanted to move the wood out of the way to kind of help them out and I caused this big ruckus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Everyone has a job, and that is clearly not yours.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's not my job. No, no, so so you get back over to guam. Now you're single and unaccompanied again, I'm assuming. Yeah, um, so what was it like now? Because now you're not in the military, you're, you're living your dream, basically yep, I'm a civilian, but I was.
Speaker 2:I I did stay in the reserves. They had a reserve unit there on anderson. I think that was the 44th APS uh, aerial port squadron, and again, I am now working as a reservist in the squadron that I was at previously active duty right now there weren't really any people there that I knew from my active duty years, but, uh, I'm working in the same building, but, but I'm working. I'm living off base. Um, uh, I have access to the base because of, uh, my military uh, but uh, I'm pretty much living on the economy, working full-time radio in the evening shift and, yes, in a way, living my dream. I'm going to work in flip-flops and shorts and Hawaiian shirt every day. I've got my truck here from the United States, my Toyota pickup truck. I'm living the life.
Speaker 1:Wow and um. So what was the format there that you were like what, what kind of work were you doing on the air?
Speaker 2:I was a DJ uh working the seven to midnight shift and it was top 40 radio at the time yeah, did you guys do casey casem on sundays?
Speaker 2:we didn't do casey casem. There was another station that did casey casem. Um, I, I, we, we did have a program that I babysat. Well, I did years ago when I first started was with their am station, the. The uh soundtrack of the 60s with gary owens is kind of a similar format, but it was all music from the 60s. But uh, yeah, yeah, those, uh, I kind of like those casey casem, kind of babysitting those shows because they're three hours long and it's just, it's uh, it's an easy gig yeah, just got to make sure the the train doesn't come off the rails.
Speaker 1:You're all set exactly yeah, so how long were you there?
Speaker 2:so this time I was there for about a year and a half okay and then, because of a girl, I left guam and went back to california, went back to live in that Travis Air Force Base area, I went back into my old reserve unit there and then got a job working in radio for a station in Concord, california, which is outside of San Francisco.
Speaker 1:Anytime a story begins with because of a girl, you got to include that part of the story, david. So what happened begins with because of a girl you got to include that part of the story, david.
Speaker 2:So what happened? Well, here we go, all right. So we got to back up a little bit. So I, I, I divorced my wife, my first wife, while I was at Travis and while and, and I came off of active duty, we got our divorce. I met a gal. Uh, shortly after we became hot and heavy and then the relationship went south. I needed to get away. That's why I left radio, because I just couldn't keep my head in the game. I went into the shipping business, still was all screwed up in my head. I called Guam and I left and went, went to Guam and then, mistakenly, I reached out to her and then she's, she's back in my life. She comes to Guam, gets me all screwed up again, she leaves. I eventually leave Guam to be with her and it just doesn't work out.
Speaker 1:And so I, I, I, hopefully that's enough, that's all I need to hear I you know, yeah, I think we can all relate to somewhat to that story at some point in our lives. So so now you're back in the States and, uh, where, where are you working? Uh, when you get, back in the. States and where? Where are you?
Speaker 2:working when you get back. So I'm working full time for a station in Concord, california. K K, k, k, k, k I S K K. 92.1 FM, 990 AM. I think that they have since changed their call. Sign their letters, but at the time it was KKIS.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, and this would have been right around what year?
Speaker 2:So this was the late 80s.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Late 80s, early 90s yes.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:I was in radio and I was at that station where we transitioned from records to CDs.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a huge deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember watching on Johnny Carson one night where somebody from Sony did a demonstration on their stage of a CD and even with the sound coming through the television it still was quite impressive and I know Johnny Carson's reaction to the sound. And we started with CDs and we had these huge jukeboxes where on your board you would program cd number 10, cut number seven, so you'd plug it into the, into this little keypad, and when it was time to and you had the cds were behind you and 9.9 times out of 10 when you push the button, it worked. But there were those infrequent times when you push the button, nothing and and and that's where, that's where your training, or that's where where it it really kicks in, is when you hear nothing.
Speaker 1:And now you got to do something like well, interestingly enough you can't see it, but right across from me is a uh, a rockola mirage cd jukebox with 100 cds from the 80s and 90s in it. So yeah, very similar. You punch in the cd number and the track number and it pulls it up so, uh, um, now these.
Speaker 2:Yes, I used to have a jukebox, but they eventually made them very small, a lot smaller. These carousels the one we had was, uh, like the size of like four suitcases piled on top of each other.
Speaker 1:They were huge yeah, yeah, then they weigh a ton oh yeah, especially when you put all those cds in it was. It takes two men and a small boy to carry it anywhere. I think is what my dad used to say anyway. Okay so, yeah, so you got to see that transition. I want to ask a question kind of again off topic, but on topic. So you know, I like CDs but I really prefer vinyl. What's your thought on that?
Speaker 2:Well, I like the clarity of the CD. I like not hearing the pops and the hiss and so on. I know that people have said audiophiles will say that you can get more sound, more deeper sound from records, and that certainly could be true. But I I know that records will wear out with uh, they they call the cue burn. Uh, at the beginning of especially 45s because you would put it on the turntable, you'd be able to hear where it was cued up through your headset or through a speaker on your board and just by doing that sometimes kind of creates this cue burn. Many times when you would start the record, you hear this when it first started. So that was the problem with with records being used over and over and over again, that you'd run into that problem and you definitely would never have that problem with cds.
Speaker 2:Oh, true it's a lot smaller. To to uh you. Now you don't have to have this huge room with all these albums.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Did you ever see the movie fm? Yes yeah, one of my. You can't find it. I had to watch it on youtube a couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite movies, though yeah and wkrp in cincinnati yeah, yeah, how realistic was that so the certainly the room is realistic, the with the turntables and the board and the microphone and um having to have you know to, to, uh, you know, you got gotta be, you gotta be awake and you gotta be uh uh ready for the next transition from one record to the next and so on. Where today it's, everything is computer operated and you probably don't even have a DJ in the room. Everything is pre-recorded, even the drop-ins and so on are all pre-recorded.
Speaker 1:So it a very different world yeah, yeah, you know I'm a big fan of and I'm not advertising for anybody but a big fan of sirius xm, only because I can listen to whatever genre of music I want to listen to at any time. Um, but yeah, I mean very, very definitely can tell it's all orchestrated, you know pre-recorded, but still, uh, it's the music yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I, I, I had serious for a number of years and I enjoyed 70s on 7 to listen to the reruns of casey casem yes, yes, that's.
Speaker 1:you know, when we were talking about that earlier that popped into my head that you know, on a on a any on a any given Sunday, it's some some year in the seventies and um, you know that's, I graduated high school in 83, but I grew up kind of in the seventies, so that music really resonates with me. You had the advantage of actually being a part of the music industry uh, during that time, which is kind of cool. I don't know if you noticed. So if you, if you look at the rock, just look at the music in general in the 60s, it seems like after the vietnam war people listening to music wanted to just chill and so you have all that like yacht rock type music and you know all of the really like mellow love song kind of stuff that you hear a lot on 70s, on sub yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting you brought up yacht rock on um. It's uh on um on on uh max. They have a a documentary about yacht rock and I had heard the term yacht rock but didn't understand what it was. I thought it was just music you wanted to listen to while you're sitting on a boat. But this really opened my eyes to that genre of music and Steely Dan was very instrumental in influencing that yacht rock sound.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've got a ton of Steely Dan. I love that music really well engineered too, yeah. So how long did you stay? Oh, you know I did want to ask you another question. So is this a myth or a truth that radio stations east of the Mississippi are W and radio stations west of the Mississippi are K? Is that true?
Speaker 2:That is true. However, there is one station in Philadelphia, I think that does start with a K, and I think there is one station somewhere west of the Mississippi that starts with a W. Even the stations on Guam, they all started with a K as well, because again west of the Mississippi. But yes, that is true.
Speaker 1:Okay, cause I'd heard it, but I you know, and I'd lived in California for a while, but I never you know, never met anybody who would know, so. So how long did you stay at? Uh, what was it? Kkis in California.
Speaker 2:KKIS. I stayed there, uh for, uh. I was there for several years. I got fired from that job because they got new, they had new owners. So I left that job and went working for a, a small AM station, for a while, uh, and that was also in Concord, california. Um, then I then again met a girl and she worked for Chevron in California and was being transferred to Houston, texas. So I went with her and then ended up working for a, uh, uh, uh, got back into radio in Houston working for shadow traffic. So now I was a traffic reporter and for some of that time I was airborne traffic reporter. I was, I didn't fly the Cessna, but I was up in it on a daily basis.
Speaker 1:Oh, that must've been pretty cool.
Speaker 2:It it. To a certain extent it was, but it it it wasn't as glamorous as you might think where I'd have to do the morning shift I lived quite a ways from it was I had to go. We flew out of Hobby Airport in Houston, which is down the southern part, I guess, of Houston, and it was a good hour and a half or so from my home. So it wasn't really convenient for me to finish my morning shift and drive all the way home and then go all the way back and fight the traffic. So I had this long time during the middle of the day where I didn't have anything to do and had to wait to the afternoon shift.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, that's not good. Not good at all. Now, you're still in the reserves at this time.
Speaker 2:No, I've since retired 2004. I retired from the reserves after 18 years.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, then you were in Houston, this would have been.
Speaker 2:So I was in Houston. I got there around 91-ish.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah, that's what I was saying. So you were still in the reserves when you went to.
Speaker 2:Oh, at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:I was still in the reserves at Kelly. I was still in the reserves at Kelly. I was driving from Houston to San Antonio every month.
Speaker 1:So you were able to find reserve units whenever you decided you were going to move for some girl.
Speaker 2:Yes, the air transportation career field is very big. In the reserves it's everywhere.
Speaker 1:How fortunate that you're able to do that. And so how long did you stay in Houston and did you marry this girl?
Speaker 2:Did not marry her. We broke up. I was there until 95 when my first sergeant came to me and said there's an opportunity to be an instructor at Dobbins Air Force Base, marietta, georgia. I had been in the career field active duty 10 years and now I was in the reserves I don't know five or eight years or whatever it was and so I was doing some.
Speaker 2:I also have a theater background we didn't talk about that, so I you know, getting up in front of people and acting and so on was came very natural to me, and so I was doing some training in our unit with the reservists and I got noticed for that and my first shirt came to me and said there's this opportunity for us to put you on active duty orders. Send you to Dobbins for six months. Would you like to do that? We're going to make you. We're putting you on active duty orders for six months. Would you like to do that? We're going to make you. We're putting you on active duty orders for six months. Do you want to do it? I said yeah, cause I wasn't making any money in radio. I needed something, and that's where I started my career in learning and development.
Speaker 1:Okay, so before we get there, you, um, you said you had some experience in theater. Was that earlier in life or was that like when you were in the Air Force? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:It started when I was on Guam the second time. There was a gentleman that I had worked in radio with, fred Nelson, and he was going to be directing a dinner theater show at one of the local restaurants going to be directing a dinner theater show at one of the local restaurants and he comes and visits me in the studio one day and throws a script in my lap and says here you're the lead we rehearse next week Wednesday, something like that. So that's where I started getting the bug of theater, of stage. You know, there was a lot that I had to learn. I learned by the seat of my pants and when I first got up on that stage it was David, with all the insecurities and the, the, the voices saying that I was no good and so on. I had those same voices when I started in radio.
Speaker 2:Uh, and what? And what I eventually learned? Cause I did stay in in, uh, in community theater for a number of years in Houston, texas. When I was back in California, I I was working, uh, community theater here in in Georgia. But what I learned along the way is I I love being on the stage and I and I feel more comfortable on the stage than I do in small talk. I've watched a number of actors being interviewed and many of them say something very similar it's easier to be somebody else than it is to be yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, it's scripted, right. You know what's expected Exactly, and it's scripted, you know.
Speaker 2:You know what's expected exactly and it's scripted. My, my wife will say to me now. She'll say well, wait a minute, you were an actor, you should be able to act. Yeah, but there was a script. I don't know what to deal. How to deal with this right, right.
Speaker 1:So so by by a lot of things for you I mean kind of happened by chance, right, I mean yes, yeah, happy coincidences, or whatever you want to call them yes, but yeah, so. So I mean, if we think about what you? I'm sorry I didn't interrupt no, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I I wasn't, I'm just, I was just agreeing with you. I, I go ahead okay, no, I.
Speaker 1:So I'm thinking like you said you, you end up with this six-month gig of instructing and it kind of is the springboard into your current vocation, where you're working with coaching people and training people. So how did things work out for that six months? And let's talk a little bit about that. And then what happens after you get done there.
Speaker 2:So the six months was up, and let's talk a little bit about that. And then what happens after you get done there? So the six months was up. So at this point I left and went back to Houston Texas because this was a kind, it was a change of station. It was a change of change of station, but not a change of unit or something like that. But it entitled me for uh, for household goods and entitled me to put stuff into storage. The government paid for all of that.
Speaker 2:So I came back to Houston Texas and found an apartment, got back into my reserve unit, got back into my reserve unit and then the, the, the, the, the training facility here at Dobbins. They called me up and said we want you back. And my unit again put me on active duty orders. But I said this time at the end of those active duty orders, I'm staying in. And so I came back here. I completed again another six months or so and then I went into the art program, air reserve technician program. The Army has something similar to this where you are civil service during the week, but then I would have to do one week. I still have to do one weekend a month and still do my reserve duty.
Speaker 1:Right, yep, let's see. Yeah, the technician program the national guard has um. I'll have a word for it too.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:There you're full-time civil service and then you're still in the guard, but you still have to be in the reserves in order to maintain that slot. Right, yeah, exactly. And then there are other programs where you don't anyway, um, so yeah, so you end up in the, in the technician program, and so how does that work for you?
Speaker 2:I did that for about five years, uh, and I certainly could have made a career of it. I was able to buy back my active duty time and apply it to my civil service time and I was making good money, because civil service they give you two weeks of military leave. I'm getting two paychecks, one from the government, two from the government. You know, getting two checks from the government, one for my civil service job and the other one for my when I do my reserve annual tour, and so on. I had a great gig but I just, I just just didn't fit in. Uh, there was just I felt that I was thinking outside the box. I approached my, my, uh, uh, the chief one time and we were in a meeting with all the other folks and I said you know, let's imagine that there is a, an organization that's outside the gate, that wants to compete directly with us. Our job, our job, uh, with the air transportation training was we were training reservists that were coming into the air transportation career field. These were folks that might've been transferring from another job in the reserves into air transportation. Maybe they're coming from the guard and they're going into the reserves and air transportation, or they had been out for a number of years and they're coming back in the service for the first time, into the reserves, into this career field, so we're training them for those two weeks that they would do their annual tour.
Speaker 2:And I just was getting frustrated with there's just no innovation, there was no. It was just like we were all just phoning it in and it was the. The chief was saying I don't care if these guys learn anything, I just want seats, I want butts in the seats. So when I raised the question, what if we had a competitor outside the gate that said we're going to steal all of these students from them and how would we compete with that? And I was laughed out of the room, right. But there was something about training that really, uh, made sense to me that there's still a lot that I had to learn. But the thing that stood out to me was learning, understanding objectives and understanding that there's a difference between a task and an objective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so you, uh, you got out, um, uh, or you didn't get out, but you left that duty and he went back into the regular reserves then, at that point so yes, so not yeah, but I had a had a little detour okay so the detour was that I took a job.
Speaker 2:I left left the the full-time uh civil service gig. I left that and took a job working for uh Lockheed, um Lockheed, in Saudi Arabia. I I went over to Saudi for 15 months to train the Royal Saudi Air Force on cargo loading of the C-130 aircraft.
Speaker 1:Wow, that must have been very interesting.
Speaker 2:That was yes, this was pre-911. This was back. I arrived there in early 99 and left in early 2000,. Was there for 15 months.
Speaker 1:Okay, did you make some friends there, or was it more just a business?
Speaker 2:Well, there were the, the expats that I, that I lived with in in the office where I was, where other, um, military retirees, uh, they, they were more focused on the maintenance, maintenance aspect of the c-130. I was the only cargo guy, uh and um, so, yeah, I certainly developed those relationships. We lived on a compound together, a western compound, and it was uh, it was easy work yeah, yeah, I that's never been to saudi but it's always intrigued me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this was in Jeddah, right on the coast of the Red Sea. I guess that is Wow.
Speaker 1:So you do your time in Saudi and you come back, and what's next for you?
Speaker 2:So I come back and again, being very fortunate that this is this is early 2000 and the business of training and development is really hot right now, and I was sending resumes to different training organizations I went back into the reserves. I I went into a reserve unit at dobbins and and then very quickly found a job working for a training company. They were designing training, customized training for proprietary softwares, and one of their big clients was Turner Broadcasting and GE were two big ones where they would have these proprietary softwares that would be designed to specifically handle whatever task it needed to handle. This is back in the early 2000s and there's no training manual for this stuff. Training manual for this stuff. So we had to go in. My job would be to go in, learn this program and then design the training and then train the users on how to use it.
Speaker 1:So you had to go in and basically pretend to be an end user, right? Oh, wow, okay. So you wrote the whole book on how to do whatever it was they were trying to do.
Speaker 2:We were writing the manuals, writing lesson plans. We were also. This was also the infancy of online training, where we are designing this uh asynchronous training or this uh this uh training that you can uh just do any time online. This was kind of the infancy of that okay, so the self-paced training self-paced that's the word I was looking for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how long? How long did you do that?
Speaker 2:So I stayed with this company. I was there, uh, uh, 9, 11. Uh, uh, uh, I was. Things, trains changed dramatically at at 9 11. I was, uh, I was at Turner broadcasting on that day and evacuated the CNN center in Atlanta that day. Went back to the office and Georgia Pacific was another one of our big clients and we were getting ready to do this big training program with them where I was going to go around to all of their different plants and train on this, train them on this one piece of software, and they said, no, forget it, we're not doing that.
Speaker 2:Uh, the company I was working for was they just put everybody on 1099 at that point, put us all as contractors. But at that same time my unit was calling me up right after 9-11. They were calling everybody in the unit saying if we have a need to deploy people, do you want to go? Yes, so again, very fortunate here that just before I became a contractor I was sent off to Turkey for three months. I come back from Turkey after three months and I do a little bit of work for this training company. Then I go off to Saudi Arabia for three months and then I come back and do more work, then I go off to Germany for three months Charleston Dover. It was just unbelievable how that all worked out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And because this all happened before they converted you to a contractor, they had to keep you on as an employee, right?
Speaker 2:No, I was. I was transitioned into a well, I left there while I was still full-time. I hadn't. I had not transitioned into the contractor job because I left to go into the military.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then you were traveling. It sounds like these short stints to just train people. Is that what you were doing?
Speaker 2:No, I was being deployed. I was volunteering to deploy in the reserves. You were limited to 70. I think it's 79 days. Oh, you could. You couldn't do more than 79 days. If you did 80 days now you're considered active duty, which entitled you to additional benefits.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so the orders were always written for 79 days.
Speaker 1:Well, kind of like what some of the big automotive companies do with the 90-day wonders or the 89-day people, right, yeah, bring them out for 89, kick them out. Bring them back out for 89. Yeah, maybe it was 89.
Speaker 2:day people right? Yeah, bring them out for 89, kick them out, bring them back out for 89. Yeah, maybe it was 89, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:It was 89, 79, but you, you, you, uh, yeah, uh, yeah so you, how many, how many of those like mini deployments did you do? That sounds like quite a few I think I did five or six of those okay and then, um, so what happens after that kind of slows down and you're not deploying anymore?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what did happen? Uh. So, um, coming back, uh, I, uh, well, I got a full-time job. Let's see. So this is yeah, this so yeah. So I got another full-time job working for a company in Asheville, north Carolina, in their training department and uh, things kind of changed, uh, that things I can't can't remember the year when it changed. But then I, I, I stayed in training and development. I kind of bounced around to a couple of different places but staying in the training world designing training, delivering training, training trainers to train and then eventually ended up in some large organizations McKesson being one of them, and some other healthcare industry, some others and then eventually I started my own business business. I was doing that on the side for about five years while I was still in corporate okay, and at this point had you met your wife, yet we haven't talked about her yeah, so I've been married.
Speaker 2:I'm on number three, the last one okay number two.
Speaker 2:if we want to jump back to that one, yeah, sure. So number two I mentioned that I came to Georgia, was here for six months. I went back to Texas. Within that first week I was back in Texas, I met my who would then become my second wife. I met her at church and then. So then she, when I came back to Georgia, she followed me to Georgia. We got married in Georgia, got divorced in Georgia after seven years. Uh and then, um, yeah, so that was number two.
Speaker 1:Seven years seems to be a number for you, David.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, seven, yeah, but I've, um, I'm long past seven now, that's, I'm even past 14 now, so I've even doubled it that's good, I've learned my lesson so then, where did you meet your current wife?
Speaker 2:I met my current wife through one of those online dating apps oh, okay through um, which I can't remember the name of it now, right now, but I was at the point where I was ready to give up.
Speaker 2:I was meeting people and, uh, a lot of times their profile didn't match who they really were and I had in there, I don't want to have any kids and I don't, I don't, I want to find someone with no kids, and I'm sitting across the table from a young lady that's got five kids, sitting across the table from a young lady that's got five kids. Uh, no, that it's so I was. I was ready to give up and so I went in this last time. I guess it was eHarmony, that's what it was. I went in this last time and I just said, ah, let me go ahead and scroll through this and you can see people that have looked at your profile. And so Donna, my now current wife, I could see that she, she, uh was looking at my profile, so I explored her bio and said, ah, she looks interesting, so let's go ahead and started the conversation, and we've been talking ever since.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. That's great. Uh, third time's the charm. By the way, I can vouch for that myself, but this is your story, not mine. So you've been married for how long, then?
Speaker 2:It's been well. We've been together, for I guess we've been married for about 14 years, and we've been together for at least four or five years, longer than that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you met her just kind of as you were transitioning into your own business then.
Speaker 2:No, before that we met in about 2006.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, but by then you had been retired from the reserves, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, Because I retired in 2004. But with the reserves you have to wait till you're 60 to start collecting your benefits. So I wasn't 60 years old yet. I still had to wait a number of years before I'd get to 60.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you and me both. I retired in 2010, and I just started collecting my retirement pay because I turned 60 this year.
Speaker 2:There you go. Uncle Sam, for me, has been living up to his obligations.
Speaker 1:Yes, yep, get that check every month now. It's kind of a nice thing, so well, good. So you uh, so you read, talk to me a little bit about what it was like for you, uh, to retire. Did you have like a big ceremony or did you just like see you later, kind of thing?
Speaker 2:it was a see you later kind of thing. There was was no ceremony, there was nothing. I don't even know if I went to my final reserve weekend. It's just I, just I, I, I just got to the point where I, I, I, I, I did my time and I was ready to leave.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how did it feel to not be in the military anymore be in the military anymore.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I guess in some ways my head was already out and um, you know, being, you know, part-time, transitioning out of part-time military definitely is going to be different than someone who is just 100% full-time military and then makes that transition. That's going to be quite an abrupt change. But for me, I'm so acclimated into the civilian world, working in the civilian world, there are aspects of it that I miss, certainly the camaraderie. One of the things that I enjoyed with the reserves was when we would deploy for our annual tour, for example. Uh, once a year we had to do our two week annual tour during our normal weekends, kind of everybody just kind of just doing their thing just to get through the weekend, right, and but when we would deploy, and now we're at an active duty base somewhere, we really gelled, and so I, I, I miss that, I that we really came together as a unit during those times yeah, yeah, that's easy to, easy to miss, easy to kind of.
Speaker 1:You're right, it was kind of easy to to leave the uh reserve component, but yeah, there's still those things that you like and and uh and and it's. It can make it make it tough, I would imagine. So you, you're all done with the military. You're uh working, um, you're you're working for a company doing, doing training Uh, but then you're also got kind of have your side business. So what, what was like the catalyst for you to uh go into full-time? I'm doing this on my own.
Speaker 2:Part of it was my age Cause I was just about I was like three months shy of getting my social security at 65. So I, uh, I felt that this was a good time. I had already been getting my military retirement since age 60. And I was getting to a point at work where I was just bored. I was getting more satisfaction out of building this business, working with entrepreneurs, working with business owners, helping individuals with their public speaking. I was, uh, developing this business as a public speaking coach.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so you make, you make the jump and you're, you're now full-time in this business. Um, what so? What year would that have been? I'm just trying to kind of pull the timeline together, Um what so?
Speaker 2:what year would that have been? I'm just trying to kind of pull the timeline together. So this was, uh, 2020, 2023, I guess the end of 2022, I left corporate.
Speaker 1:Okay, and were you ready? Was it scary? Talk to me a little bit about what it was like to kind of break away from that steady work. And now you, you're.
Speaker 2:everything depends on you yeah, yeah, that that it all. It didn't hit me at at the beginning. Um, you know what? Let me also say that what also ended up happening at this same time is my wife ended up having some medical issues. So now I'm full-time in this business trying to figure this whole thing out, and now I'm now having to be a caregiver, okay, and which became a a a I don't want to use the word distraction, but it it certainly was keeping me away from building the business, right? So that, to me, was that was a struggle, but also learning. There were so many things I didn't know about about running a business, about my branding and who am I? What do I do? Who's my client? Uh, all of those, a gazillion questions to really figure out of what lane am I going to be going down. You know, at first I was saying people would say, well, who's your client? Well, everybody, everybody needs public speaking coaching. But that does, that doesn't work. You've got to have a, you got to have a lane.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, absolutely. And so what made you, what made you think public speaking rather than training and training materials and training programs, and all of that?
Speaker 2:Well, I, I still do the, the training. I can still do the instructional design piece and, uh, you know some of that stuff. Yes, I can do it, but I do farm it out. So I but it's because of that instructional design background that has been the big benefit for me in my career as a public speaking coach. So why public speaking? I, while in corporate, I started training folks within the organization on how to be better communicators. I was training a lot of soft skill stuff leadership, communication, delegating, counseling, coaching type courses that I was teaching. But the one course that I found that I enjoyed the most was training trainers to train and training executives to be more confident when they're going to go speak at a conference or run a breakout session.
Speaker 2:I've been a part of Toastmasters on and off for 30 years and bringing in what I've learned from Toastmasters into my training and I found that I just I feel I have a good stage side manner of, I'm a good listener and I I also feel that I know what it's like to have extreme anxiety around speaking. I I've had to work through my own stuff. I've had to work through those voices telling me I'm no good, that you can't do this, that whatever negative thing you want to incorporate in there. I've been through all of that stuff. One of my first questions to people when they come to me is that why are you here?
Speaker 2:Why do you feel you need this training and do you need this training? Hear, why do you feel you need this training and do you need this training? Do you need to get up and speak to people? Well, no, well, great. You don't have to, you don't need this training. But if you have to get up in front of people and you have to do this, and it's a matter of life and death for you to get up there and do it I know I can help you do it by not only developing the confidence, but also with the writing the writing instructional material is identical to writing a speech.
Speaker 1:I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective.
Speaker 2:It's all about objectives, right, if you're writing instructional material. What's the objective? What's the purpose? What problem are we solving? Why do we need this training? What expectations do you have when you get to the end of this training? What should I be able to do better In a speech? When you get to the end of your speech, whether it's 60 seconds, 30 seconds or a full day workshop what's the objective? What is it that you want people to walk away with and never forget? So it all starts with objectives.
Speaker 1:Well, so when you look at the two helping people with public speaking and, you know, helping people with putting together training and that sort of thing which one is most gratifying for you and why?
Speaker 2:It's the public speaking, it's the, where you can see those immediate results the, the, the training materials like the workbook or a lesson plan, that's kind of the all in the PowerPoint. That's the ancillary stuff that you provide to reinforce what it is you're talking about. You have a handout to reinforce your PowerPoint, reinforces what you're saying. It all starts in the same place Again objectives Once we have the speech. Same place, again objectives. Once we have the speech we. We then can design everything else around it.
Speaker 1:so I think that what I like is is is getting that speech uh, uh, concrete okay, and you, I mean you just really kind of started out so you've got, uh, you've got some more years to to, to work and do things, but it looks to me like you're enjoying yourself. Yeah, I do, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, thank you so a couple other questions.
Speaker 1:So I'm making some assumptions here, but you never had children then.
Speaker 2:No kids.
Speaker 1:Okay, and how's your wife doing now?
Speaker 2:Much better.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you Okay good, well, I mean we've covered a lot in the last kids, okay, and, and how's your wife doing now? Uh, much better. Yes, thank you, okay. Good, well, I mean we've covered a lot in the last uh hour and a half or so. Uh, is there anything we haven't covered that you want to talk about?
Speaker 2:well, um, I recently, uh, attended a program for veterans and first responders called Warrior Path. It's a 90-day program for PTSD and the first seven days are done on site. There are sites all over the country. This is a program that originated from Boulder Crest, if you're familiar with that, and the Warrior Path was provided here. It's absolutely free. The first seven days are done on site and it's quite intensive, and it was part of my healing. When I left those seven days, I left there feeling a lot lighter, and the remainder of those seven days I left there feeling a lot lighter, and the remainder of those 90 days is done through an app that's on the phone.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it sounds like a great program.
Speaker 2:It's a super program. It was through a gentleman that I met at the program, john, who you interviewed, and his dad, but John was in that program with me, uh, back in April of this year.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. Now this is interesting to me, um, because having talked with John, having talked with you, you seem to be, uh, uh, an upbeat or a happy person. You've done things that you've wanted to do your whole life. You've made your I would say you've made your own luck in many instances. But, just like a lot of at least veterans that I know, it sounds like there was some stuff you were carrying around with you that no one really was privy to, that you just kind of drove through and did what you needed to do and um. So I'm curious, what prompted you to go through this program?
Speaker 2:ah, great question. You know, to tell the truth, when, when I was originally approached with this program Warrior Path at first, I knew for like three months that I was going. I applied for it, I had my interview, I did all the things I needed to do and they said, yep, here's the date and this is where you show up, and so on. It was like three months down the road Part of me was thinking, seven days away from my wife, it's going to be like a men's retreat. I've been a part of a men's group at church for a number of years and we would do retreats and so on. So, yeah, I really didn't understand what this was all about, to tell you the truth. And then, three days before I was scheduled to leave for Warrior Path, I started doing some research and I came across a video from Boulder Crest about Warrior Path. Within the first minute I was in tears and I was saying to myself I don't deserve this. I'm not worthy of this type of program. Again, I didn't really understand what the whole I knew.
Speaker 2:Ptsd Did I have PTSD? I don't know. Do I have trouble? Yes, did I have addiction problems? Yes, have I been in counseling and therapy for years, yes, but it was the catalyst that really started me in a different direction.
Speaker 1:And how has it changed your mindset since you've been through the program?
Speaker 2:Well, it it. I have a habit maybe it's more than a habit of closing down, of just shutting down, of not talking. And I'm in the business of communication. You put me on a stage and you can't shut me up, but in the house, even as a kid, I didn't talk, I didn't express, because I felt that if I talked, now I've got to engage and now I've got to open up and now I've got to be vulnerable, and these are the last things that I want to do. I was all closed up.
Speaker 2:One of the stories that I took away from Warrior Path was about the shell that's on a lobster, that the lobster grows but the shell doesn't, and how that relates to us as humans, that we have our shells, we have our weight on our back of all of the things that we've brought with us through the years, the traumas and what have you. But I felt that for the first time, I've got all this stuff that's going on underneath this shell, and that was that was eyeopening to that release of the shell and being allowing myself to be vulnerable enough to build that new shell around me to now, uh, be big enough for you know who I am now in my life. That was one of the big takeaways for me is was that your question?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. I mean the, the, the synopsis is it allowed you to grow. It allowed you to get rid of the small shell and grow into who you are.
Speaker 2:Exactly and, and, and I've had to release that shell a couple of additional times over the. You know, I went through this in April. The 90 days is over, um, and when I first left there after those first seven days, I was riding a high. Holy crap, I was riding a high and some great things happened during those initial weeks afterwards, but then you come crashing again. But the difference is I've got these tools. Now that I know what's happening, I know I've got to release that shell. I know I've got to find that safe place where I can release the shell and be vulnerable, my communication with my wife is much better than it was before. Can it be better? Yes, but it is better than it was before.
Speaker 1:Kind of reminds me of a plumber that you know. The plumber goes and does all the plumbing but his house, the plumbing sucks right, yeah, the carpenter too.
Speaker 1:Right, and you're out there teaching people to communicate and to train and to do all these things, but you're not doing it like right, yeah, when I go home, I'm not plumbing anymore, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, it's just gonna work the way it works, yeah. So it's great that you found a way to uh break out of that. And the other thing is, um, you know, because I'm 60, I can say this, like it's never too late to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, uh, I was the grandpa in the group. I was the oldest in the group, 68. I am uh going off to another program called warrior week, which is also here in Georgia. It's run by a different organization but it's at the same location, but these are both programs. Warrior Path is open to all veterans, all ages, no matter how many years you put in the service. It's also open to first responders as well, again, no matter the age, but Warrior Week is only available to veterans post 9-11 oh okay, and who?
Speaker 1:who runs that program? Do you know? Uh well, the is it the same group?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's at camp southern ground that they're running that program okay, so that's um that zach brown's group exactly. Well, it's zach brown. He owns the, the property there, and certainly I think he had an influence of bringing in these programs. But, yeah, he owns that and it's during the rest, during the summer months, it's used as a camp for kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, the whole thing's an incredible. I mean, I, I would. I would urge people to go out and check it out. If you're a vet, if you're a veteran, you know a veteran. Go check that out because it's very cool, it's a great program but?
Speaker 2:but they have programs other places around the country right, right, there's.
Speaker 1:There's not a lack of programs and by and large, they're all pretty good at what they do. You, I think, sometimes you have to find what works for you, right? Some? Some of it works for certain people and some of it doesn't work for others. Yeah, Exactly.
Speaker 2:I felt that the folks at Camp Southern Ground for Warrior Path they are excellent at what they do they provided that safe place. They took us through the curriculum in a way that just kind of chipped away at stuff and allowed each of us. There were seven of us that went through that program and you know, the other takeaway is that uh and all seven of us, the trauma, the initial trauma, started in childhood. It's the same with myself.
Speaker 1:I don't, that's just not, that's not uncommon, I don't think because, the way. The way that we deal with it when we're kids informs how we deal with it as adults and and that's probably not a great path to go down yeah, yeah and and in some ways, uh, you know, going into the military of you.
Speaker 2:well, number one, when I went into military, I didn't realize that I entered the military with a rucksack that was already full of all of this stuff, right, and so now you're just told what to do, when to do it, how to do it, what to think, what not to think, and all of this other stuff. You're not, you're not. Give you, don't. You don't end up in a place where you, well, let's talk about that, let's think about that. Why do you feel that way, david? You know you don't have that time. And number one and number two, I didn't even know I had all this weight with me.
Speaker 1:Right. And then people are putting more bricks in your backpack the whole time. You're out there doing your thing, right?
Speaker 2:Right, and then some of these guys, they they had those traumas where they were in a war zone and seeing people blown up and so on and so forth, and them themselves having atrocious injuries and and the that trauma on top of all the other stuff that was already in the backpack.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot to unpack, yeah, and it's a lot to unpack, yeah, and it's a good thing we have programs to help veterans do that. We need it for sure, yeah. So, yeah again, we've covered a ton of stuff over our conversation today and, uh, you know, as we get towards the end of the conversation, we're getting ready to wrap things up. Um, I do have like just one more question to ask. I ask everyone the same question, and that is for someone listening to this years from now, what message would you like them to take away from our conversation and from the way you've lived your life.
Speaker 2:Well, great question what do I want people to take away years down the road watching this and saying, maybe a relative or someone that may have known me and just know that I gave it my best shot, very fortunate, in my travels. I'm very grateful for all of the experiences that I've had that have brought me to right here right now the challenging things, the extraordinary things. All of those I'm grateful for. And if you know, I was asked the question. My therapist was asking me the question just earlier today about what would you tell your younger self if you could go back and visit with that nine-year-old, 10-year-old, whatever, david and just let that that, let them know that, that you know that I'm. I'm kind of like a. My wife calls me a genius. Uh, that there's.
Speaker 2:I've got many talents and just to just to relax and to allow, allow things to just kind of happen. Don't get all wrapped up in this stuff and don't, uh, don't get all wrapped up in this stuff and don't. You know the voices. Just find a way to put them to the side. Be happy, exercise, go for walks, don't feel like you've got to have that external connection of that.
Speaker 2:There were times where I didn't feel complete unless I had that external connection of that I didn't. There were times where I didn't feel complete unless I had that external connection of some sort whether it was a woman in my life or or a drug or alcohol or something else external from my life to feel complete, that everything I have is is within me. So what people can take away is that that all of us have the tools we need. When I coach people, I tell them you already have everything you need right inside of you. My job is to pull it out of you. So what people can take away is we've. What people can take away is what we've already that I already had everything I needed inside of me at age 10. I just needed to allow it to flourish.
Speaker 1:All right, great message. Well, thanks for taking time out on a Tuesday afternoon to talk with me. I really appreciate it, david.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Bill.
