From Army Brat To Intel Officer (Keith Lane)

A HIMARS battalion fires 372 rockets and hits 372 targets. Years later, the same planner is fighting a different battle: drone warfare that gives you 90 seconds to decide if the “lawnmower” overhead is friendly or about to kill someone. That’s the arc of our conversation with Keith Lane, a Michigan Army National Guard veteran whose career moves from college football leadership lessons to military intelligence, civil disturbance readiness, and two deployments that sit right at the edge of how war is changing.

We trace Keith’s story from being born on an Army base in Germany to growing up in Lansing with a single mom, strong coaches, and a deep belief in service. He breaks down National Guard OCS choices, the reality of accelerated OCS, and what it takes to earn trust from peers. We also dig into what most people never see: quick reaction force validation, Latvia partnership work after Crimea, and the Joint Operations Center grind when chaos hits fast and leaders need clean information.

Then the hard parts land. Keith talks about Iraq and Syria planning, Iranian proxy threats, counter-UAS defense, and why time-based withdrawals can hand the enemy a clock. We also talk about the cost of war after you come home: VA care, injuries, grief, and veteran suicide. When a med board ends his uniformed service, Keith finds a new mission helping veterans through a congressional office, proving that purpose can survive the transition.

If you care about modern military leadership, the Michigan National Guard, veteran transition, and what service really costs, listen through to the end. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the biggest lesson you took from Keith’s story.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Today is Tuesday, March 31st, 2026. We're talking with Keith Lane, who served in the United States Army, Michigan Army National Guard. So good afternoon, Keith.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Good afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and talk with me today.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

So we'll start out pretty simple. When and where were you born?

Cadets And Teen SEAL Training

SPEAKER_00 0:50

So I was born December 30th, 1985, Augsburg, Army Base, Germany. Started as an Army brat, but not your typical Army brat. I think most of us would say that none of us are typical Army brats, but uh my mom, she had served in the United States Navy for a couple of years and then joined the uh the good side, I tell her, and joined the Army uh to become a Russian linguist. Uh while she was learning Russian, uh, she met my father, who was in the German Navy and was learning English at the time. And they met in San Antonio at language school. Um, just by chance, uh, fortunately enough, that uh my mom was stationed about 30 minutes from his home village of Igling. And uh when they both got uh back to Germany, um, they ended up you know having a relationship. And really, it's kind of the tale as old as time as you're deployed, and um that led me to you know being born in Germany, um, right uh kind of in the middle of the Chernobyl incidents. Uh, you know, my mom, she'll never tell me what she actually did as a linguist in Cold War Germany, but uh knowing that she knew Russian, I know that she probably has some phenomenal stories too. Um about a year later, after being born in Germany, uh my mom was able to come back to Michigan and she got out of the army and kind of started our life here. Uh, ended up being in Lansing. A lot of my family had resided in Lansing at the time on my mom's side, and ended up, you know, going to Holt, uh, which is just south here in Lansing. Um, you know, unique that going from Holt from kindergarten all the way through high school. Um always had an uh you know fascination with the military as a whole. Um sports was number one, military was always kind of number two. Um and I knew that you know one of those pathways was going to provide a life for me. And uh I was fortunate enough to be uh a college athlete playing football, um, but definitely not the the top 1% of the 1%. Um and so ended up falling back onto uh the Army as a secondary career after college. Um but during my adolescent years, um really got involved in C Cadets here in Lansing. Uh ended up going through a couple schools. So the C Cadets great program, uh able to go to basic training at Great Lakes, two-week program. Um, but what I really wanted to do, uh, this was my sophomore year in high school, is go to their Navy SEAL training that they have. Two-week training. They had one in Coronado, they had one in Little Creek, and then one in Lake Okeechobee. Um, just by time, uh, at that point, like I could go to the Lake Okeechobee one. Um ended up as a sophomore. I went in there maybe 185 pounds. Uh to this day, I think it's still one of the hardest trainings that I did for two weeks. Came out 165 pounds, uh, ended up getting scuba qualified. They had a really good program, um, safe program, but it really gave teens the ability to, you know, try out what they wanted to do and see if that was going to be something that they wanted in the next aspect of their life, uh, which I did. I knew that uh there was an opportunity there, um, with my mom and father both being in the military. Um so went through that, uh, did some more uh you know C cadet training, um, but my passion for sports kind of adapted and overcame from that aspect. Uh so ended up, you know, excelling in football and baseball. Um, was fortunate enough to receive a scholarship from Northwood University, um, my senior year. And that kind of gave me my pathway for the next four or five years as I went to Northwood to become a college athlete.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

How exciting is that as a high school athlete to get that scholarship? Northwood's a great school.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, it's it's definitely very fortunate. Uh going through the recruiting trail uh 20, 25 years ago, uh it's a lot different now. Yeah. Um, but I was blessed to have wonderful coaches through and through for for all my sports. So I was three sport athlete in in high school, football, basketball, and baseball. Uh Coach Smith, who was my high school football coach, uh, knew that you know my father hadn't been you know part of the family just because he's German. And um, so he really kind of took that uh that role for me. Uh a big time mentor um and helped develop me, show me what it took to to achieve success, you know, not just in high school, but also, you know, in life. Uh and then I met Coach Reitma at uh at Northwood. And in the same lines of the type of mentorship, the type of person that you want to be affiliated with. Um, I didn't fall in love with Northwood. I fell in love with Coach Reitma. Um, and and that was really what took me to to Northwood. So uh having that uh to fall back on, um, it's always been a team sport for me. Uh being able to be a part of that team, to to win and lose together, um, to learn these lessons was was critical in my development. Um that's that's led me pretty good. I'll always say that uh losing is the best way to learn. Um did a lot of it uh in in some sports, but we also learned how to win as well. Um so when I went to Northwood, we were very fortunate to be uh a part of a great team led by great people, great teammates who I still stay in contact with today. And it's great to see them, you know, whether they went to the pros, you know, into the CFL, playing against people that played in the NFL, um, you really realize the the talent level that you're fortunate enough to play with at the time. So uh it's set a really good precedent of what it's like to be a leader at all stages and then also to be a follower. Because when you go from everybody's good in college, everyone was good in high school. Uh you step into the locker room in college, and everyone was the best player on their team. Um, if not, they were the top two or three. Uh and so it's really humbling to get reset and learn how to follow at that point, and then slowly grow and become a leader there as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah, absolutely. So your um your dad wasn't really involved in your in your life growing up then?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

No, he he did his best. Um, he would be who I considered to be like your weird uncle. Okay. Um, so he uh, as a German native and German citizen, ended up growing up and spending most of his adult time in Mexico, uh in Guatemala. Oh. So he took off our Sherman family as a bunch of farmers, and uh he would come up uh a couple times a year, um, you know, as he could, as as work would allow him to. Um so he was there, but he wasn't that uh day-to-day presence.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Um, and so getting to know him as I've gotten older has been wonderful. And uh still to this day, you know, traveling in to see the family in Germany, I'm the only American out of 14 grandkids. Um, and so it's very interesting to see as we've grown up uh from our teens to you know early 20s to my 40s now, um, how similar I am to my cousins and aunts and uncles with not having a huge presence of the German side. Um the first time I walked into my Oma's house, the farmhouse that's been there for over 100 years, uh, she took one look at me for the first time. I was 22 years old. And there was no denying that I was a rulia and and part of part of the family. Um so yeah, but Ded did his best. You know, he supported us. Uh he would bring in Mexican and Guatemalan artwork into Southern America and southern United States and distribute that. And that's kind of how he supported uh from afar. But he would always take the time each trip that he got to Kansas City or St. Louis to make that extra trip to come up and and see whether I was playing baseball, football, uh, you name it. He would he'd make the attempt to come up and and check in and hang out. And um, we've continued that relationship through um, you know, to this day. So it's definitely not the the most common way to grow up. Um, but I had some very good, you know, male uh father figures, whether it's my uncle on my mom's side, my grandpa, um, coaches along the line have always been there to support me and and to be there to help kind of mentor as I've gone through life.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Okay. And what about your mom? What did she do to help support the family as well?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, so she was a single mom of two. So she I have an older brother, half-brother on my mom's side, and a younger half-brother on my dad's side. Um, so I'm I'm in the middle. Um, but she, you know, she worked hard. She was in the insurance industry for a long time. Um, she ended up going and taking care of my grandparents in their older age, and then ended up uh back with a VA, uh, surprisingly enough. Uh, she loved to take care of the vets, being one herself. Um, and she really took a very keen interest in making sure vets got the correct the right care um that they could. And that was in northern Michigan. Uh, she ended up retiring out of uh her admin position just within the last year. Um, so I really kind of use a lot of her day-to-day background to help support vets now to understand the VA system and kind of what people in the C box and the hospitals on the administration side are going through so that uh I can help relay that to veterans and identify some some friction points. It's been very useful uh in this this latest role for me. Um, but yes, so she retired out of the VA and uh she's happily enjoying um you know figuring out what to do in retirement. Uh but uh yeah, so she she went from insurance to the VA and um is currently retired.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Oh, well, good for her. They always say have a plan when you retire.

College Football And Hard Mentors

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yes. Well, you know, we thought we'd had one uh for her, and she uh she's looking at herself like I don't I'm not really sure if this is what I want, but that's the perfect thing about retirement is she can she owns her time, and I think with all of us as as we look towards you know getting to that retirement age, is if we can own what we do in our time, um, that's probably one of the greatest gifts that we have. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

So you uh you get through school, you get through high school, you play in college, you play football in college at Northwood. Um, you know, if I were to ask, uh, you know, what's what's one standout memory from your time at Northwood? What would that be?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, it's it's really when it comes down to winning the Gliak. Um back in 2003 to 2008, uh Grand Valley was a huge powerhouse in Division II football. Um, famous people, Brian Kelly, he was their coach at the time. Um, you know, uh Chuck Martin followed him, winning multiple national championships. We were very fortunate, uh, my red shirt freshman year to win the GLIAC in the middle of that. So we had a really good team. And I'll I'll never forget the celebration, you know, whether it was defeating Grand Valley or the final win to secure the GLIAC, and um, just a moment with the team to celebrate everything that we've done from start to finish, from training camp through. Um, it took a lot of hard work. Um, and we saw the payoff at that. So it was it was the building, it was the coaching, the mentorship, it was the grind. It's getting through everything with your teammates. You know, you're in that foxhole every day, whether it's the weight room, the film study, the practice, you're traveling. Um, it it really culminated into a wonderful season, too. And it's historic too. Um, you look at the the amount of talent that was going through, you know, Michigan and Division II football at the time. Uh, we're very blessed to stand out in that nature.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Well, and I think, you know, with the Big Ten being all around us, right? I think that those other schools get uh overlooked. And you don't think about the the people that come out of there and do great things.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

It's true. Um, you know, and and I'm I'm fortunate enough to to attend a Grand Val or uh to Northwood, but there's a lot of friends of mine that went to Grand Valley, that went to the Ferris States, Northern Michigans, Wayne State, Hillsdale, uh, Saginaw Valley. And those are some really good programs. And I mean, if you look in recently now, uh Ferris States won, I think four out of the last five national championships. So it's not that it's been one program, that each program has had their chance to shine and really showcase their athletic program. And if you look at the skill set of of a lot of the players that are doing things, that's it's truly impressive that a lot of them come from Michigan um and continue to have uh success, you know, throughout the the levels of programs that they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, absolutely. Now, what did you study in college? What's your degree?

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, Northwood is a business school. Um, so I was a business management, um, business marketing and entertainment sport promotion management, triple major. Um, so didn't finish out all with the uh the bachelor's in all three, but ended up with you know associates and a couple um to finish with my business degree. Um and Northwood is is really one of the premier private business schools in the state. I'll tell you, if you ask a lot of people in Midland if they knew where Northwood was, they would say that they have no idea. It's in their own backyard.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Um, which is kind of funny and it's it's kind of cool to help educate some of the people, but it's it's a very niche community. Um, didn't know it. Again, I didn't fall in love with Northwood. I fell in love with Coach Rema in the coaching staff, Coach Gonzaga, who was our defensive coordinator, Coach Haynes, who was the head coach for Northwood. He was our defensive line coach, um, Coach Sullivan offensive, like that whole crew has grown Northwood athletes for the past two decades. Um and we continue to have comments and and dialogue uh through that piece. And so the business structure and the academics is top-notch. Uh so definitely, you know, for individuals that are looking to have one of the premier education backgrounds that focuses on business, so would be highly recommended. Um, you know, like most teenagers though, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. Uh so going back, maybe I would have, you know, focused more on what the academic portion was, uh because football is not a lifelong sport. Uh so you can only play football for so long before your body says, you know, father time is undefeated in this piece. Uh very much so, like in the in the military as well. So um, but would have probably focused uh a little bit more on you know what uh the pathway was at the end of you know what college looked like. And when I when I got done with school, it was 2008. Michigan was on a uh critical, you know, depression. Uh here it's super tough to get jobs. So I ended up relocating to North Carolina doing dropout prevention uh for a nonprofit called Communities Schools. Uh and it's one of the premier um, you know, educational programs for uh adolescents that are really at risk of not graduating and really found the niche of you know helping kids and mentorship. The much that I got from some of the uh father figures that I had adopted throughout my time. Um a lot of the kids in Montgomery County, North Carolina needed the same type of mentorship. And and sports were a good way to communicate to a lot of them. Um, you know, not being from North Carolina, but being from Michigan, uh, it took a little while to for them to show that you know I cared and I was in it for them. But uh, with any type of leadership role or mentorship role, it really kind of led to uh great relationships uh being built and wonderful programs helping, you know, almost 300 students in a in a county.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

And you feel like your your background in sports as well as your background in business um helped you relate to the kids then? Like you could use a lot of the the principles in sports to help those kids.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Absolutely. And I was fortunate enough to to continue coaching down there. Um and so could ended up being, you know, JV varsity football coach, um one of the assistants for the team. So having freshmen that uh were on JV and being able to communicate with them and help mentor on and coach on, not just on the football field, but some that were in the programs as well, um, really showed the community that I was invested in in the growth and the success of the at-risk youth that that were in the county. Um but absolutely every every day you could learn or use a lesson uh that uh that you got from being a part of a team sport or just kind of growing up, it it can correlate to the T of what you try to do in whatever your profession is that you choose, you know, beyond playing sports.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Right. Well, how do you think being the son of a single mom helped you in that respect?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah, a lot of hard work. Um I was I was fortunate that uh we had things provided for us. Um we definitely weren't uh you know middle class, but I would say like lower middle class to we had the everything that we needed to to survive. Um and and my mom worked her ass off to provide things for us and dedicated a lot of time and effort to provide for my brother and myself. Um with that being said, she also found the time that she was at every sporting event. Um so a lot of shuffling between my brother and myself of you know, how do we get to practice? How do we get to, you know, jazz band, or how do we get to all these different events? Um, and she definitely put uh my brother and my needs first and did a wonderful job out of it. My brother ended up becoming a doctor in physical therapy. Um I've had some you know relative success in the army and with follow-on careers. Um, and it's all due to the sacrifices that she made. Um, you know, and and she ensured that we we worked hard for what we did have. Um so whether it was chores, whether it was working with family members to if we wanted a new boom box or if we wanted a car, we were working for it through the summer. Um, and really put that uh integrity and that uh dedication to to work to earn, you know, what you sew. And so um, you know, she provided the needs and then provided the pathway for if we wanted something nice that we we had the opportunity and the ability to to work hard for it. All great lessons. Absolutely. Yeah.

Coaching And At Risk Youth Work

SPEAKER_03 18:27

So you uh you're down in in North Carolina for a while. Um what what happens and how did you get back to Michigan and in the in the guard?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Um so the program was good. Um, but I'll I'll tell you that uh I had uh ideas of of bigger things for me in life. Um not that uh helping at-risk stu uh youth and students is isn't it's top tier. Um but in a nonprofit, you you don't make a lot of money. Right. Um, you know, and especially at that time, 2008, 2009, um I was looking for something just meaningful, um, to have a purpose. And I think a lot of youth, a lot of young men and except especially want to have that purpose in life. And I had a good purpose, um, but also wanted to provide more for myself. Um, and so that's when I started talking to recruiters. Um, to be fair, if I hadn't uh gone on and played football in college, I would have joined the army right out of high school.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Um so with all that experience in the C Cadets and my family members um had a strong desire to serve. And it just took me a little bit longer than than normal. So started talking to recruiters and ended up trying to figure out how the the quickest pathway that I could become an officer. Uh one thing that my mom said that uh if I was going to join the military, she'll sign off on it and I'll have her blessing as long as that I want the officer out. And you know, she got out as an E5 or E6, and uh she just knew that uh with my desire to lead and and be in the front, that um, you know, her recommendation to me was to to get the most out of this, um become an officer, and you'll have the most uh you know influence across the formation. Um so I ended up talking to the Navy, talking to the Air Force, talking to the Marines, talking to the Army. Um and at the time we were kind of doing a drawdown of the the the Army and the military as a whole. So um if I'd have been a year or two earlier, they probably said, yep, absolutely, you're you're going, you know, active duty, we've got you, you've got to the qualification, go forward. Um, but at the time it became a little bit more scrutinized. So um ended up the quickest way for me to sign on and become an officer was to go to OCS through the National Guard.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Um so with that being said, I wanted to get home. I knew that uh, you know, for me, if I'm gonna be going to basic training and officer candidate school, um, that it would help to have family near you. So it's you know, with the National Guard and the ability to get called up and at a moment's notice. Um, you know, I knew that I needed a little bit bigger support group. Um so ended up uh enlisting technically with the Michigan Army National Guard uh through the 090 program, which basically just means went to basic training. After you complete basic training, you go to OCS, you go to OCS, uh, complete that, then you go to your bullock or your basic officer leadership course. Um so not quite the engineered aspect of like a Mustang that you know is enlisted for you know two, four, six years or however many years, and then go from there. Um but the one difference is they do force you to go to boot camp. So in 2020, no, 2012. No, 2011, days are hard this time. Um let's see here 26. So in 2011, I signed my contract in 2010, ended up going to Fort Sill um Army Base in in Oklahoma for yeah, my first tranche of training, which was basic training.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Yeah, oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah, it's it's quite the aspect. I haven't been back there. Um and you will you will not find me volunteering to go back to Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Um people say, oh, I loved it there.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah. Uh they might have had more freedom than I did. Um, you know, I spent nine, ten weeks down there. Um learned a lot. I was the old man in in basic training. Right. I was I just turned 26, I think. Uh, and um, you know, to the point where you know, some of these kids were 17, I was almost a decade older than them. Um, but also I think that you know, going in a little bit older, you're a little bit wiser to the games that go on. Um and and just made the best of it. Uh had a good story, had my mindset uh of what was going on, knew what I wanted to do, um, ended up getting, you know, put into some of the leadership positions and basic training, and um, you know, just made the best of uh a really horrible nine-week uh edition of Fort Sill. Um it wasn't all that bad, but uh, you know, I don't think I I don't think I hear it a lot of people saying that they wish they could go back to basic training.

Joining The Guard And Basic Training

SPEAKER_03 23:06

No, uh-uh, no, very few crazy people maybe, but uh yeah. So you you you when you left basic training, then you went to just regular traditional OCS then, not the guard version where you go on your drill weekends.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

So I went to the accelerated. And that's a fair question. Um, there's actually three OCSs that you can go to as a guard member becoming looking to commission uh as a lieutenant. So the traditional National Guard version is you drill once a month and you're going to OCS and it's 14 months long. Yeah. Um knew that wasn't for me. Uh like I said, I was looking to see how I could get there the fastest. Um at the time, the National Guard was really standing up their own professional uh education centers, um, you know, whether it's in Arkansas or your each state. Um so there's an accelerated version where you sign up to go to an accelerated course. It's eight or nine weeks long. Um they have a couple of them across the United States. Uh the best one, and I'm biased, but also I truly believe this, is Alabama Military Academy.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Um so I did an eight-week accelerated OCS, which is basically steroids, uh basic training on steroids.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

So you basically did back-to-back basic training. Correct. Oof.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yep. But you know what? It's good in shape, uh, and in really good shape from basic training as I went forward.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Um, you know, and that's where in Alabama and in OCS they they want to see your leadership skills, much more so than just the basic army skills and and uh you know, basic training. Um so ended up, there's about 13 or 14 of us from from Michigan that went down um to Alabama in the summer of 13, 12 or 13, and um absolutely had another worst eight weeks of my life. Um, you know, running around, it's 105 degrees, you're in full kit. Um, but uh I remember, you know, the fact that after each peer review, um, you know, you get uh kind of counseled by your your TAC members, your black hats. Yep. Um and after each you know week that we would go through in different positions, they would sit you down, and this is what you're doing good, this is what you're you can improve on, and this is where your squad or your platoon ranked you. Um and I kept on having the same conversation throughout the eight weeks, and it was, you know, here's your improvements, here's what you did really good, and here's your ranking by your peers. And I continued to have like a top two or three ranking, and whether it's my squad or the platoon or the company as a whole, um, in the tax be like, I don't know what you're doing, but your your people love you. So uh just keep on doing that. And you know, had a couple of text like I don't see it. And I'm like, that's fine. Uh you know, you didn't get a vote on this, so it means a lot more to me that this is what you know my squad company and and uh you know platoon thinks of the work that I'm doing and contributing. So it means I'm doing something right and and contributing in the right amount of force and and being that team player. And then a lot of that comes back to you know being a little bit older uh still. I I would say the National Guard OCS program, you're gonna be a little bit older uh as as you go through it, but took uh took the experience from you know being that college athlete and being a part of a good team and what that looked like with the mentors that I had and the coaches that I had and just applied those lifelong lessons to what I was doing at basic training in OCS.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

Okay. And I I went to OCS at 38, so I had to get a waiver just to get commission. Oh yeah. Yeah, and I did the I did the the guard version that took 14 months.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Kudos to you. I I don't know how people do it. I would go back to to assist with OCS, and you know, we come in on the weekends, and you know, the you got accountants, lawyers, you got everybody, construction workers that just they're they're in it for you know two or three days a month, and then they go back to their full-time job. And um it it takes a certain special individual to endure that for 14-15 months.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

You learn to embrace the suck.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yes, absolutely.

Accelerated OCS And Learning Leadership

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Yep. So you um so you uh graduated OCS, and then is that when did you select what you were gonna branch?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah, so they gave us options. They said put your first three down on this list, and you know, we'll do our best. You know, the needs of the army come come above. Um, and so through the whole process, I ended up uh uh becoming a military intelligence officer.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Um I also kind of branched uh infantry later on, uh, did a little backwards and we can get to that. But uh my top three when I was down in OCS is I wanted to be a pilot. Uh I wanted to be a military intel like my mom. And then I said infantry. And uh so went through and they kind of looked at uh you know, racked and stacked. I ended up being the honor graduate out of uh out of OCS, so the top candidate um got uh a couple nice uh you know plaques that uh hang up in the office that said, good job, and you know, at a boy. Um so ended up getting the you know the honor graduate there, um, but did not get my top selection of aviation. Um, you know, unbeknownst to me that if we wanted to branch that, uh we had to do a flight physical before we left for OCS. Um, which, you know, being the top candidate, uh I would have gotten the first slot. Um but because I didn't have the medical uh thing done prior, uh they gave me my second choice, which is military military intelligence. So that's how I ended up becoming uh Intel officer. Um and I'll remember um ended up getting uh you know pushed into the the 177 MP Brigade um as an S2. And um, you know, one of the you know happiest times of OCS is when they tell you, hey, you're gonna be this branch and then you're gonna go to this unit. Um and you get with all your friends and you'd be like, oh, I know someone from this unit and all this is gonna be good. Um, you know, very similar to as I went through basic training and everyone found out, I'm gonna go to you know, Hawaii, I'm going to Germany, I'm going to Kansas, and you know, all the ups and downs of where your next duty assignment's gonna be. Um felt that same kind of euphoria as we you know got our branches in in our units when we were in OCS. So ended up becoming an Intel officer. Uh that took four months of of training. So um, you know, kind of going back to you know an interesting family history, it took me a little bit longer than than most to get my top secret. Uh, because when you fill out your your form to get your top secret and they start doing the investigation and they realize that you know your dad's German and then he lives in Mexico, and his occupation is is you know basically bringing in Mexican artwork and goods, raises a lot of flags as it should. Yeah. Um, you know, and some some questions, and then you know, having German family uh definitely brought up some you know questions as well. So it took me a little bit longer to get it out to Fort Wachuca in Arizona um than most. But uh we got through the the interview process. I had my T uh Top Secret and then spent uh four months out learning what an all-source intelligence uh analyst does. Um and so did did four months. I was very fortunate that I went out there, I want to say like in January, February, and ended up uh, you know, coming back in June. Um, but that class, uh probably some of my the best lifelong friends, you know, between sports and the army, you know, you meet a lot of great people. But the the one class that I was in for military intelligence was uh to this day um one of the top tier groups, and there's only about 40 of us, um, but we really gelled together um and and had a a superior bond. Um, and just the level of officers that came out of there. I mean, you know, I I like to say that I was a pretty good intelligence officer and and fortunate enough that I was ranked number one coming out of there. But we have individuals that are still you know deploying, and you've got um, you know, ranger S2s, you've got special forces S2s, you've got uh Ranger MI battalion XOs and uh Harvard fellows that all came out of this one group of 40, you've got aide-de-camps to uh the three-star in charge of you know the the military intelligence brants for the army, um all from this one class. Uh so you've got about 10 of us that uh not just excelled um but are extremely dominant in the military intelligence field for the army. Um so to be able to go through a course with that type of um not just those people, but that type of person. That caliber. Yes, absolutely. And we stay in touch today. Um, you know, one is the uh uh Ranger Intelligence Battalion S3. Uh one is completing his fellowship uh on the hill, one is a uh legislative liaison for the Army on the Hill uh in DC and continue to grow and get these awesome positions that just showcase the level of talent that uh that came through the class. So we had a lot of fun. Um and and the competition was was top tier, the people were were even better, um, and it really just kind of set the scene for success as we got out of you know military intelligence school and went to our first duty station.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Right. Well, I think that's a the kind of the cool thing about whether it's sports or the military, you do make those friendships. I think just because of some of the adversity sometimes you have to go through. But again, when you're in a it it seems to me like your your life so far, um you've always been top tier, but then you're in with all these other top-tier people. Do you think that that can kind of skew your view of how other people should be? Like when you're when you're with high performing people all the time, I think oh everyone must just be high performing.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Yeah, and and that's that's very fair because you start you know expecting people to perform at the top level because that's just the standard. Right. Um and and standards are great, and you always want to be, you know, above the standard and and and have that. Uh, but there's you know, the the time that there are people that meet the standard, but not quite to your standard. So one lesson that I learned from my uncle, um, you know, as he's a successful businessman, is you know, if you hold people to your standard, it's great. Um but when they don't achieve it, it's not the end of the world. And you know, ensuring that, you know, while you want to drive people and you want them to do their best and and achieve what uh the expectations are, that uh, you know, failure is okay, um, especially when people are trying hard and and you know advocating. And and I think as a junior leader, um, it was a lot harder for me to see that because you need to you need to meet the standard and and meet the expectations. And what I've learned as my career's gone through and my scope of influence and leadership has has grown and expanded is um you know you can't expect everybody to to meet what you do. Um it's okay to set the bar there, but it's a growing experience, and especially when you have junior soldiers and junior workers as well. You know, staff can they're they're trying to learn too and they want to do well. And it's your job to to build them up and show them what right looks like. And um, like I said, if if even if you fail, you know, it's about the lesson that you learn there. Um, and so it it can be a tougher lesson to learn as a leader, um, of you know, where where do you drive that horse to to meet that expectation? But where do you allow people to fail and you know fall short and and learn that lesson, you know, either the easy way or the hard way? Um and so it it it's a growing experience as a leader as well.

MPs, QRF Readiness, Latvia Partnership

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Yes, absolutely. So you um you leave Fort Wachuca, where do you go from there? So I mean essentially you've been active duty for quite a while now.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah, it's like the first year of my career, I was I was pretty much active duty, um, you know, at least on orders, as we'd say, in the guard. Um and I end up being the the 210th MP Battalion S2. Um, so as the intelligence officer for the the one MP Battalion, Military Police Battalion out of Taylor here in in Michigan. Um so I reported to my my first unit in about 2013, 2014. Um, no idea what I was doing. You know, I had four months of school, but uh, I was gonna do the best job that I could. Um and once I got into the unit um and started doing you know monthly drills, um, really kind of set forth and and the MPs are are very unique here in Michigan. Um and I was very blessed um to to fall into that unit. Um they'll always say, your first NCO or your NCOs always take care of you. Um and I had a wonderful set of you know E6s to E9s that uh um knew that uh while I wasn't uh you know a normal lieutenant that was 22 years old coming off ROTC, uh knew how to groom me and show me what right looked like and and expectations for me and my eagerness to serve and and to provide uh you know uh value-added um advice and and influence into the unit. Um so after about two or three months of you know just asking like, what can I do? What can I do? I'd love to do more. Uh the MPs here in Michigan, uh they have the quick reaction force mission. Um so anytime that there's a uh disaster or um disturbance or anything that needs the the Michigan Army Guard to respond, um, that is their mission. And at the time they were going through a validation process to revalidate with National Guard Bureau, um, and they were looking for someone to kind of lead that uh full time. Um and I was asked, uh, you know, I was on vacation spring break about this time of year, um, just kind of enjoying spring break when I got the call. If I wanted to come on my first full set of orders, um, which is what I'd been kind of working for for the last two years, is how do I become that full-time guardsman? Um, and you know, doing you know, army work day in and day out. And I got a fabulous opportunity, got my foot in the door to lead, you know, validation training, to plan it. So you're logistically planning this, uh, different training scenarios and training events, um, different annual training events to help lead to the validation. Um, and as an Intel officer, one of the best things that you can do is first you got to learn what your your unit's capabilities are so you can understand what the enemy will do as well. Um, so I hit the books, hit a lot of uh field manuals, hit a lot of doctrine to understand what the MP mission was and how that looks when you're deployed, um, how that looks in a civil disturbance or disaster area with Disca in response to the homeland stuff. So uh really just kind of hit the books to learn the field craft of what the MPs do and what the quick reaction force mission was to help provide training and then to to resource that training. Um and had a lot of great leaders, not just at the battalion but at the brigade level, um, that kind of let me explore and and do things um uh you know on my own and then would kind of guide me through the process. So uh it was a lot of navigation of of searching and and planning, you know, on an island. Uh, but when we were getting that sanity check, they would absolutely course correct me you know, from their experience, which you know, they didn't give me the answers, but they they gave me enough tools to to be productive and planning some really good training, and we ended up validating the the QRF um in that piece. So that's where like my first love of the military police kind of comes from. Um spent about three years with them um doing that uh that position um and and really trying to uh rewrite how the quick reaction force would deploy. Um and that came and really was uh a huge support um going on in into the future of the Michigan Guard because from 2002 to 2014 there might have been one or two activations, um, whereas most states will will get three or four. You're getting a lot of activations for hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires, uh, earthquakes, you know, you name it. Uh Michigan's relatively safe. Uh so we were one of the most underdeployed National Guards during that time period. Um, but we knew we had to always be ready. Um, and so updating, you know, standard operating procedures and making sure that we're falling in line with what you know the National Guard Bureau was going to do out in DC and the help and support coming in and cross-agency with the Michigan State Police. Um, so spent a lot of my time uh doing you know that coordination and going from there. Uh one of the great aspects of that is in 2014, I was able to go on a bilateral trip to Latvia. Um a lot of people don't know, but the first uh uh American troops in the Baltics or in Ukraine after Russia went into Crimea was the Michigan National Guard. Um the Baltic states have a deep history in the Soviet Union, um, have a close tie, a huge Russian population. Um, and the Pentagon Department of Defense at the time were very concerned about, you know, if if we don't show our support for our partnership at the time, um, that something similar could happen. And so uh the first unit in was the shadow unit, uh just kind of doing some exercises to to plant that American flag on on to Latvia, um, you know, in a very tense time. And then the next people that came in were the MPs um and and really doing some some joint multinational training um with civil disturbances and if the crowd uh gets rowdy and and how we train and how we um kind of look at that uh whole scope of of response from you know not just the state but the country as a whole. So um I was selected to do a tabletop exercise with you know uh the Latvian version of the FBI, the the CIA, their their National Guard, their armed forces, and just kind of communicate, you know, this is what we saw that happened in Ukraine at the time. Um here's where we see some vulnerabilities of you know what could happen, and here's some critical infrastructure. Um here's you know our threat matrix of you know what we do, how we evaluate, how we protect our critical infrastructure, and then how we respond as not just an army unit or a national guard unit, but how we respond as a whole state and as a country to something that could happen. Um very fortunate that nothing ever happened, but uh some of the relationships and the training that was done back in 14, you know, live on to this day through the partnership with with Latvia. So was very blessed to help lead that uh that endeavor and that training piece at that time.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Well, and I think that people um don't understand the military police mission, right? It's very multifaceted because you do have you do have the garrison version, you have the combat MP version, um, and then you have all the stuff kind of in between that the MPs do that people just don't realize. I think I think when people hear MP, they think, oh, you know, the PX is that way, that kind of thing. Um so yeah, I mean that brings to light all the different missions that the MPs can do, which makes it kind of uh if you're looking to do something different every day, that's probably the a good place to go.

Joint Ops Center And Civil Unrest

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Yeah, you are definitely like the the gumby of of the army, um, to give them credit. And and I'm I'm very blessed that here in Michigan, we are all very blessed that uh the MPs that we train here are you know the the combat role, so the most diverse um that we do have. So they're doing convoy security, they're doing site security. Um, this is all things that as they build into the the bigger scope of the plan, you know, p POW transfers. There is um a lot of of different things that uh the MPs do um that you don't see that as frontline uh fighting and it's in rear security, and um that is just as imperative as as the frontline. So getting to understand that as the intelligence officer really kind of set up a good understanding of not just the MP mission, but the Army and how it operates as a whole. Right. Um and so was was able to take a lot of that experience uh through the QRF, through these missions with Latvia, um, and ended up becoming the uh joint operations center uh officer in charge here at our headquarters here in Lansing. Um so the in Michigan, the Michigan State Police has ownership of emergency response. Um the state emergency operations center is at the MSP headquarters, um, and we are a secondary and support and advise mission to the MSP. Um each state does it differently. There's a lot of states that do it our ways. There are a lot of states where the National Guard is that first responder. Um, but part of that as a support addition, um we have a group of people that are, you know, on orders that are working 24-7, monitoring the phones, monitoring different floods and fires and tornadoes, um, different bad weather, snowstorms, um, civil disturbances that uh they sit in our headquarters. And as that information comes through, that you know, it is dispersed throughout just not the the Michigan Guard leadership, but also to subordinate units. And there's really that kind of focal nucleus of you know, first response to be there. So uh took the uh understanding and the experience that I had as the uh you know the the trainer for the QRF um and then kind of launched into you know being um one of the leaders inside the the joint operations center, the jock, um, for different aspects uh in about 2014, 2015. Um so was very fortunate to get that experience. At that point, I had volunteered for a deployment. So, you know, on top of being an intelligence officer for a rocket artillery unit, the 182nd, my Monday through Friday was working through, you know, just different roles and responsibilities as the Jock OIC. That was the first time that we saw a lot of, I would say, civil disturbance issues start to pop up across America. I was coming home from a mission over and Selfridge over in Detroit and driving back after getting a briefing to walk into the jock, and I just see it's almost like pure chaos. Come to find out, you know, that there's some civil disservances that were planned in Michigan based off some other things happening in Missouri and Iowa. And, you know, we were getting into a posture to respond. And so 48, 72 hours of just pure chaos of what that looks like. So we could advise the adjutant general, General Badney at the time, um, you know, what force posture looks like, who we could activate. You know, here's our eight-hour recall time, here's our 24, 48-hour recall times. Um, in just that dance of understanding, you know, if we need to be called on and we need to respond, are the units and the soldiers and airmen ready? Um, and then are we prepared to provide that uh type of assistance to the MSP and the governor? Um so we stood up and did, you know, eight-hour briefings and we're constantly refining products, getting ready to go in. Um, and so, you know, throughout all that chaos and I will say that dance, uh, you know, my NCYC and I just, you know, buckled down and we ordered some, you know, Buffalo Wild Wings and got through, you know, through the night, and it was just kind of working yourself to that next meal of all right, so our next brief is here, you know, what do we need? You know, how can we improve what we're doing in our response time? You know, who else needs to know? Um, and we did that about twice um, you know, before I left on the deployment, and it really put uh an emphasis on that uh civil disturbance and that disco response of what needs to be done and how much of a uh planning cycle goes into responding to a natural disaster or you know any type of activation. There's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot of chaos, um, a lot of information that uh is true, is not true. Um, you know, you're always trying to get the commander the most accurate information that you can and um really learned from some of the senior leaders, you know, a Lieutenant Colonel Conley at the time was the um J3, uh Colonel Brown was the three at the time, and um held me to a standard of, you know, this is what it this is what it takes when your product is going in front of the two-star general, but not just him, but Governor Snyder.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Um, and so when you're building these products and you think that, you know, it's okay that not everything's aligned or it looks sloppy, understanding that that goes in front of the governor um truly was like a humbling experience of why you need to be at the best of your game, and not perfect, but at the best of your game, um, because someone is going to make a decision off these products um that could impact uh a whole you know plethora of people at the time. Um so we did that dance a couple times that summer um as we went into a uh I went into a pre-mobe cycle. Um, and it really kind of showed me just you know what it takes to you know stay cool, calm, collect, but also improve your battle position and continue to improve what's going on. Um so you can advise and be the best you know staff officer at the time uh to your commander.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

Well, and uh at the same time, you don't want to under-respond or over-respond too, right? So you have to figure out what that looks like. So uh where was the deployment that you were uh you were going to?

HIMARS Deployment And Fighting ISIS

SPEAKER_00 48:15

So I very fortunate on my first deployment. Um so I was the S2 of the uh 182nd uh HIMARS, um so the uh sudden death battalion, which is a rocket artillery. Um they look like little grasshoppers that shoot rockets and missiles. Um so our headquarters was just about 30 kilometers south of Dubai, uh which sounds really cool when you can see one of the most expensive and beautiful cities, uh, but you're sleeping in tents all the time. Yeah. Uh so we were on an airbase just south of the city. Um, and uh so we took over uh I want to say 16 launchers. Uh and this was right about the time that uh Mazul had just been overrun by uh ISIS um and and Daesh. And so we knew that the the HIMARS had been um as a strategic weapon system that you know the the CENTCOM and and uh joint force commander operates and owns at that level, um, that there was a potential for us to to go back into Iraq and Syria at that time in 15 and 16. Um, even though that the whole battalion was getting ready to go to the UAE and Dubai, um, we had started kind of planning what that would look like if we got sent into Jordan, Syria, uh, and the tri-border area there, and then what it would look like if we had to send in a small sliver to um, you know, northern Iraq into the Urb LPs as we started to regain territory in in Missoul. Um, and sure enough, you know, we had we had practiced, we had rehearsed, we had qualified, we did all the pre-mobe stuff. Um, we're down in Fort Bliss doing our final validation, and I get a text on my cell phone says, go into the secret room and check SIPR, check your email, we got to change a mission. Um so the unit that uh was currently there that we were talking with, getting ready to relieve, um, had worked with and ended up putting one battery of launchers um into uh into Jordan into MSAB Air Base, MoFu Mofu Salty Air Base, which is still there to this day. Um and so what we had thought was all 16 launchers were gonna go into uh UAE. Now we were gonna split and be kind of a task force group in UAE and in into Jordan, um uh, which kind of threw us for a curve, but we kind of knew something like this could happen. Um as you kind of watched the news and looked at the intelligence of of Daesh and ISIL moving across Syria, moving into Iraq. Um, we knew that we couldn't just stand by and watch that happen. So uh we were we were accurate in our prediction that uh we would get into the fight. Um, you know, so we ended up having a sliver into Jordan uh with eight launchers and a headquarters element, and then the rest of us went down to Camp Red Leg um in uh in UAE. Um very interesting now as we sit here on March 31st, uh 2026, um, because the intent of the UAE mission um was to target strategic locations into Iran. Um we were there to train the the Emiratis on the HIMARS who had had that same system. Um, but the actual mission why we had launchers in UAE is to be able to you know launch and fire hit uh different targets into Iran. Um so while all the launchers and the crews were doing their training missions, um, a group of us would go into you know the top secret room at another airbase, you know, read about this this con plan of this idea of if we had to go into action against Iran, what does that look like? What targets? And so my time in that deployment was spent um helping provide some intelligence for those uh launchers that were in Jordan, but a lot of the time driving around UAE, finding different launch points and and refining the plan, should we ever have to fire into our Iran, which at the time seemed pretty ridiculous. It's always good to have a plan. Uh but as we sit here now, um, even though the launchers aren't in UAE anymore, uh a lot of the targets that have been hit in the last uh three to four weeks were targets that we were planning and doing intelligence again back in 15 and 16. Um and so kind of full circle as we sit here today with the events that happen, um, but spent a lot of time just driving around uh Dubai and the other Emirates, just finding different spots that we could fire rockets and and missiles to attack Iran. Um so that was kind of like the non-sexy piece of the deployment because you're just driving around in a Pajero and a little four by four, you know, just going and through and taking pictures and hoping that no one's following you or anything like that, um, to build up the plan that uh, you know, in case we ever needed it, which so happens that we might have needed it uh here recently, um, that it was there. Um the other part of it, which became a lot more sexy, um, is about two months into that deployment, we took some of those launchers um from UAE and then put them into Iraq to start getting into the fight against the uh you know Daesh that had come in across the Tigris and the Euphrates. Um and so that took a whole nother planning cycle of you know what launchers, what crews, what logistical node. Um we went into Firebase Bell at the first part of it, uh just west of Erbil, um which at the time was just you know basically a square berm uh with some Marines and some 777 howitzers. Um and as we worked with those Marines, you know, they were telling us that they were, you know, if they weren't attending the guns and and shooting artillery, that they were on the berm waiting for Daesh to continue to you know probe and prod and attack them. Um and so when we got there with our slice of of HIMARS, and uh it was you know a really good um addition to one beef up that base. Um so we helped set it up, we helped uh you know, with the ammo supply point, with communications. So we brought you know more capability to the fight against uh ISIS as we started pushing into Iraq and um and back in Syria as well. Um so that really got us into the kinetic fight uh for that deployment. So we did about six months where we were shooting rockets um into Missoul and across the Euphrates um in Tigris um from that point. So uh pretty good shot record. Uh we had um 372 rockets that we fired, uh hit 372 targets. Um so as we found the fire mission and we were tracking everything from Jordan to you know Iraq, we were tracking as the battalion headquarters and in UAE. Um so each mission that would go up through the targeting cycle, you know, whether it was a um deliberate or dynamic target, uh, the boys did a really good job of getting to the launcher and then started to find some different tactics, techniques, procedures. You know, how do we take take down a whole building, you know, with a you know a coordinated uh joint strike with a F-18 or F-15 coming in? So, how do we target each side of this building and the targeteers doing the kind of weapons piece of it and then dropping you know a 500-pound bomb to bring it all down together so you get uh you know maximum casualty, maximum effect of what you're doing? Um, and so we got pretty good at the different joint targeting cycle and going from there. Um, so on top of going out and and doing some scouting for the con plan, um, you know, we go to Jordan, we go to Kuwait, we'd go to um, you know, different locations that you know could see and advise our commander of how could we make this more effective, you know, from the either force protection side or or you know, the intelligence side. So uh really good record. Um it was not the normal deployment. You know, when you set up, you think you're gonna do a year-long annual training in Dubai and you're gonna enjoy all the sites, which there was some of that. Um, but you get quickly involved into the fight and and realize that even if you don't think that it matters now, what you're doing matters into the future. So um had a successful, you know, push into Jordan and the tri-border area, the um, you know, getting in Firebase Bell, getting that set up and and putting kinetic strikes in. Um, and we left just as we were getting ready to assault across uh the uh the Tigris and getting into uh Q West Airbase and retaking that uh in about August of 16. So um definitely a unique experience, but uh it was one that I'll cherish. The the friends that I made, the the brothers and sisters in arms that uh I got to deploy with the experienced that are some of my best friends today.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Well, and uh you know that's listening to you talk about it's 180 degrees. So I was I was in Mosul from 06 to 07, and the idea was to to create as little destruction as possible. And to hear you say, Oh, well, how do you take this building down? Because it was it was they took away our uh our our uh Mark 15 grenade launchers because they were afraid we were gonna knock down buildings with them. So um it's a com and and I understand because everything was all that stuff that we were there and defended had been overrun when we pulled out, and now uh now it was time to take it.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Yeah, they had uh give ISIS its credit at the time. Um they had thought that we wouldn't hit uh some of the prominent buildings, so they had set up their headquarters and um like the Missoula Hotel. It looked like a big pyramid. Yep. Uh beautiful building. Um they set up a headquarters. Yep. Well, we brought it down. Nice. Um and you know, once we got the authority, you know, from the highest level, um, usually you're looking at the CENTCCOM commander and and sometimes even the president uh to do some of these strikes. Yeah um, you know, it it became a weapons-free area for for us. Um, and how do we support retaking, you know, Iraq for the Iraqi people?

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Um, and and we were allowed to do what we needed to do. Um, and while the advice and assist missions that, you know, the 82nd and the 101st were doing on the ground and in the front lines, you know, we were you know supporting them as the they supported the Iraqis and the um Kurds to retake their territory, yeah. Um, which is the right way to do it. They had to have some buy-in. Um, you know, it couldn't be just American forces doing the clearing operation. You know, the Iraqis and the the Kurds needed to have some skin in the game, um, but they also needed some support. So from the advisors on the ground with them, you know, whether it was the you know um you know SF detachments, the SEALs, or you know, just the conventional um people that we had with the 101st and the 82nd, you know, that uh that intelligence surveillance reconnaissance, the the drones that had that, you know, awareness, that intel um really assisted them. But they had to go into the buildings and do it. And um, you look, it was pretty successful. Um it didn't it wasn't a quick operation, but the the right ones are conditions-based, not time-based. Um, and that really set the stage to go in to to clear um ISIS all the way out of Iraq and then start pushing into Syria.

Iraq Syria Planning And Drone Warfare

SPEAKER_03 59:53

Do you find that that's frustrating? I was kind of off topic a little bit, but it's frustrating that that people look at uh different military operations uh from a time-based perspective rather than uh uh you know an outcomes-based perspective, like we could get this done in two weeks, or it could take two months, or it could take a year.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

We don't know, but here's what we're trying to achieve, and it can't be you have to achieve it in the next 30 days. Now, sometimes we do that, uh but typically that's how that's how people tend to look at it is how long we're gonna be there. Sure. Not what are we accomplishing while we're there.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Yeah, absolutely. Um on my second deployment, I was the chief of plans um for the 37th IBCT out of Ohio. Um, and part of my mission there was to uh plan for the withdrawal of Iraq and Syria for U.S. forces.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Um and day one, step one of that process was reviewing what happened in Afghanistan um and all of the failures from there. Um and so you get into country at that point and you realize that we put a time on it, and then the enemy knows that they just have to outweigh you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

Um, you know, if you look at the Taliban and in Afghanistan, to that point, they just they knew that, you know, their fight with the Russians in the 80s, they just had to outlast them. Um and to a point they knew that they could do the same thing to us. You know, it's successful with them, it's gonna be successful for us. And our administration and uh leadership allowed that to happen. You know, once you put a timeline of one year, six months, two years, whatever it is, they know that that clock just starts ticking. Um instead of, you know, once we hit this condition, once we hit that condition, that can lead us to do this. Um that really is what set us up for failure um with the withdrawal of Afghanistan. And I've been fortunate enough to read the after action report uh of that, not just the the unclassified version, but the the classified version that that shared what the plan is, the different options for the administration of multiple administrations and the recommendation of the military leaders um on the ground. And none of it was a time-based thing. Um and when you went through that process and we did a time-based withdrawal, you saw exactly what happened in Afghanistan. Um, and so that is extremely frustrating, um, not just as the uh soldiers on the ground, but anyone that served in Afghanistan. All that hard work, all that blood loss, everything that happened to throw it away to um you know something that is time-based that projects when you know the enemy is gonna win. Um, it's extremely frustrating for all involved.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I remember sitting at home watching the watching Mosul being taken over again and watching all the uh things that we had traded lives and blood and treasure for just being obliterated, and there's nothing you can do about it. It made you wonder what what the heck was I doing there uh to begin with. So that can be very, very frustrating. Absolutely. So where was your second deployment to?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Yeah, so um 2022, 2023, um, you know, a lot happened uh at the home front between the two deployments, but uh did a Iraq and Syria uh tour. Um, you know, in the meantime, for my growth as a um active guard reserve um officer, I kind of capped out on the Intel side. Um and so when I talked to leadership about my future um in the army, uh it was recommended that uh, you know, become a combat arms officer. Said, cool, all right. So, you know, I deployed with the artillery, um, did that, already checked that box, don't didn't want to become an artillery officer. Uh, we don't have tanks, so I couldn't be a cab guy, um, which really led me to becoming an infantry officer. Um, and so became an infantry company commander, um, went to maneuver captain's career course, um, but that still didn't qualify you to be a qualified infantry officer at the time, and still doesn't. Um, so went to leadership and said, you know, what's your recommendation? And I was 35 at the time. They said, we're gonna send you to infantry basic course. Oh, yeah. So the four months that I spent down in Arizona and made all those great relationships, I was gonna do it all again uh at 35 and go to go to Benning, spend four months to learn how to become a proper infantry officer. Um, and uh that was quite the experience that uh kind of led into the second deployment. Um and so through trials and tribulations of a 35, 36-year-old, finally made it through, um, got injured down there, um, tore the hamstring while I was running, you know, the five mile, and uh that kind of delayed my exit out of it. But uh I did pass and got it out, got the blue core just in time to go from betting, go to a pre-mobilization exercise in uh grayling, and then immediately left uh to to pre-mobe. So from 2021 to 2023, I might have spent like three weeks at my house here in Lansing. Um, but got prepped. Um all the while doing that, I was a company commander um right before the deployment. Uh the brigade commander had come had come to you know, my battalion commander, and it's like we would like someone from Michigan to fill in our chief of plans position. Um, you know, we don't care if it's an 04 or an 03, um, but we need a good dude that can come in and do some strategic planning and you know, that that planning cell, that uh, you know, foo-ops of of what we're gonna do in Iraq and and Syria. Um, so I walked in, uh, had just you know got my blue cord, and they're like, all right, you're gonna be the planner for the entire infantry brigade. Um now I can do planning left and right, like I've done the planning piece, right? Um, but to be cast into you know that position um with a bunch of people from Ohio, the units from Columbus, um, you know, and the the bad blood, good blood of Ohio, Michigan was was true. Um but I'll I'll tell you that uh some of the best men and women that I served with ever came out of that unit and that that deployment. So um, you know, kind of took it in stride, um, hit the books again to learn a lot. Um so while we're we're trying to mobilize and and plan and do all of our hit all of our gates to go into Iraq, I'm I'm studying, I'm trying to get to know people and um you know understand the commander, Colonel Flaherty at the time. He's now General Flaherty. Um, you know, get into his brain, because any good staff officer, any good commander um understands what commander's intent is, um, so that you can kind of predict his moves and get out in front so you're not waiting for commands. Um and so one thing I've been pretty good at within my career is understanding who my boss is in the chain of command and um how they think so I can predict and and get out in front of them um, you know, so that they're not waiting on me and I'm not waiting for for decisions. So ended up going into uh the headquarters for the combined joint task force uh inherent resolve was in Erbeal. Um my battalion, the one. That I was a company commander in ended up being the landowner in Syria. So they were across four different bases in Syria. We owned Urbil, and so we had people there. We had uh uh uh ATG, we had our CAV uh squadron down in ATG, which is in Syria. Uh we had people in Tower 22, which is in the cusp of from my first deployment setting up um that base, and then we had people across Iraq and in Baghdad. So out of the six to seven thousand Ohio and Michigander uh National Guardsmen, you know, the brigade headquarters owned all of the land, um, was the only combat brigade in in theater, um, and we owned it all. And here I am sitting two months from infantry bullock as the the chief planner for for it all, um, which was a uh hugely humbling experience. Um and and we got after it. There was there was a lot of things that uh that we did. Um so we had Iranian proxies, we had Russians, we had um uh Syrian armed forces all prodding and trying to cause a disruption, um, you know, got into a couple firefights with drones and shaheeds and um different missile attacks uh across uh Iraq and Syria. Um and it really was the cusp of you know the beginning of the counter-UAS fight. Um so in the ramp up in how do we defend ourselves from this new threat that we saw in Ukraine, um, one of the big things is you know, how do we build redundant um you know duplicate systems, not just to detect, but to defeat these new drone systems that are coming at us. Um and so we practiced, we rehearsed, we we did everything that we needed to do. But until you're sitting in there and you're in, you know, in the tactical operations center as you know, some of these things start coming in, um, you don't know what to expect. It's it's a new type of warfare. Um, you know, they sound like a lawnmower, you know, overhead, just in you you can't pick them up. You can try to see them on radar. Um, you sometimes pick them up, you sometimes don't. Um, you've got about a minute and a half to determine if it's a friendly or a foe, and then you know, you've got that 90 seconds to fire, and hopefully that rocket goes off the chain. You know, if it doesn't, you know, you you might have time to spool up another one. Um, or do you have the the counter rocket artillery mortar, the CRAM go off and the Gatling gun goes off as your last minute protection? And hopefully that's successful. And if not, you know, you're bracing for you know whatever impact comes in. Um so that was the it wasn't the start because we knew it was coming, um, but it was like the start of the um American forces across the world getting you know put into a position where these these lawnmowers in the sky, these drones are coming in time and time again.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:48

Well, you know what I remember my time over there, it was it was different because there was a lot more people, a lot more American troops in in Iraq. But you know, if we got in trouble, they they would bring in uh the UAV and they didn't have to fire anything. Like the enemy would just hear that thing coming and they would they would leave.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:07

Between that and the helicopters, they would just leave because they knew what they knew what was coming after that. This is kind of the opposite of that, right? Now you're hearing it come in.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

It is, it's it's pretty wild. Um, you know, the fire and forget the technology that's in it, how cheap it is and inexpensive to build these things and how effective they are. Um it's truly amazing. And you gotta give credit to um, you know, you gotta give credit to your enemy that found a way to um launch these things from hundreds of miles away. Um they're GPS guided, so they just need a point or a coordinate or you know, something, so they don't they can fire it and forget. Um, you know, I know one one that hit us up in uh northern Syria was launched from northern Iraq, and our base in Erbil was closer than this place. Um but they kind of did like an uh oopdaloop uh, you know, and and fired from Iraq into Syria, um, in which we would never expect you know something from the desert to come up there, but it did and it got through and ended up killing, you know, one of our our maintainers. Um and it that was like the eye-awakening portion of we're not, you know, we're not perfect here. And when we're not perfect, someone can can die. Um, and that started a whole um slew of events that you know kind of led to us, you know, a huge escalation of of multiple strikes and and different things happening in that period of time, which you know, just we it was March 21st, 2022, 2023. We just had the three-year anniversary, so it's 2023, um, you know, of a whole escalation between the US and Iran and the proxies. And, you know, if we do this, they're gonna do this, and if we do that, they're gonna do that. Um, and you're you're kind of seeing the culmination of what that is um right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

And you know, the attacks that are happening at the bases that we were at, um, you know, you're you're seeing what happens when some of these uh drones get through. Um and the the area that the CENTCOM and the CJTF that owns the the buildings and the bases, we've been rehearsing and practicing and and doing live fire conditions for this for the last four or five years. None of this is new. Now that the amount that are being fired is is new as it's escalated, but this type of action and uh reaction and defense has been happening since 2022, probably 2021. Um you're just seeing that at an increased rate. Um and so, but we prepped for it. We we did our best. We weren't perfect. Uh we know we had you know some some people that uh that didn't make it, and we had a lot that got injured from it. Um, but you know, we were we were successful in in the mission of you know ensuring that we did the best of our base defense and you know helping the Kurds out for the mission of what they were doing to help protect uh and defend you know the growth of ISIS and the camps that they have there. Um and so all of this is going on, you know, and we're planning the the withdrawal of Iraq and Syria at the same time. So, you know, as as different drones and missiles are getting shot at you, you know, we're we're planning for that and we're fighting that fight, but we're also um you know, planning on you know what happens in two, three years to set the conditions for us to get out of here because we don't want to be there forever. Um and so it is quite uh a dynamic experience in in itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:34

Well, and you know, I think that it's very easy um to underestimate the enemy. I think it happens more often than it should, in that we look at many times, we look at these countries as th third world countries, right? So many people don't have respect for the fact that they've been fighting for thousands of years and they know how to do it really well. I think one of the things I learned as a commander over there was respect for my enemy. I don't have to love them, but I do have to respect them and understand that they have ways of hurting you that maybe you haven't thought of. Um and and you have to you always have to think in those terms, uh, especially now. I mean, look at what's going on now. Um I know that Iran was providing EFPs, which was a pretty advanced weapon, um, to the Iraqis. But who would have thought that they have all of the power and weaponry that they actually do have? I mean, I don't think we think that way as Americans until we've been there.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

No, absolutely. And it it's definitely not, you know, uh an attack happens in Syria or Iraq, you're not thinking that uh, you know, the Iranians are behind it, but they a thousand percent are. Yeah. And they have been since you know the early 2000s.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:48

And they're not using slingshots and stones, they're using honest to God weapons. Yeah, that's a tough one for people to really comprehend. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

You know, there's definitely a a financial piece of that that they're supporting, but the material piece, like with EFPs and the drones, um, you know, it and it's all coming from you know east of east of Iraq, which is why this this you know past three, four weeks in in Iran has been so impactful. Um, you know, anyone that's that's spent time, you know, understanding what's going on or or living through it knows that the Iranians were behind a majority, you know, at least 60 to 70 percent of all casualties in Iraq, you know, either directly or indirectly, and that continued to this day. Uh I mean, in the last year and a half, you know, we've had four or five Americans before the attack started that were attacking killed, you know, whether it was Tower 22 or different attacks happening in, you know, RLZ to the north. Um, and we've significantly withdrawn our footprint in Iraq and Syria. Um, so that planning stuff that started, all those plans and options that we did in 2022 and 2023, um, I would say most civilians don't know that. We actually started executing that in the last year and a half. We never publicized it because it's not time-based, it's conditions-based.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:04

Right.

Loss At Home And A Broken Body

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

So all of that review and that study and that planning that we did back in 2022, 2023, we've closed down three or four different bases in Syria, um, which reduced our footprint, which made us more secure. We closed down El Assad airbase in Western Iraq. We pulled out of ATG and um in the cut and and over in um you know Syria. We've withdrawn those forces and been hugely successful um in reducing the footprint because the plan was good and we did it conditions-based. Yeah, not we didn't publicize it, we didn't put a time frame on it. We said, you know, once we hit this achievement, this is what you know, the Kurds and the Syrians and you know, the Iraqis, it's it's your land now. We've achieved our objective, um, but we weren't going to make it time-based and wildly successful. And people won't talk about that until they realize, you know, maybe that we've pulled out of you know all of Syria and all of Iraq. And um, but we've significantly reduced by almost like 70% our footprint over there. And we did it quietly because we did it the right way. Right. Um, and that started in the 22, you know, campaign of what does this look like and how do we not do another Afghanistan?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:14

Right. So you finished up your second deployment in what, like 23? Yep. And then uh what happens after that?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

Yeah, so 23, it's August. Um, you know, at the time, um, you know, I hadn't been home in a couple years. Um kind of uh uh, you know, just a family tale here. The my brother's middle child, his name's Aiden, um, he had a mitochondria disease uh called Elbers, um, which we knew it was kind of terminal, and and we found out during my first deployment that, you know, uh a long, good life for him, he would have, you know, made it to about 13, 14 years old. Um, so it's it's you know, cells don't make the energy like they like they should, and it's hard for him to to keep up in in organization or organs to to really kind of go forward. Um so we're getting ready to to leave, and he has another seizure, which is pretty common for him, like him going to to the uh you know, sparrow or or the hospital. Uh we had that battle drill pretty much down um, you know, a week before I'm getting ready to pull out. Um, you know, it it becomes a little bit more serious, and you know, I get the call when I leave Iraq. Um, I get a couple calls from family members, so I land in Kuwait and learn that he actually passed away um while I was on the plane uh to to Kuwait. Um that was when I knew that uh got I was done. Yeah. Um at that point, about 14 years that I'd been away and dedicated and put my time in. Um and uh so you start going through that whole grieving process. Like you just should be happy, just span it out of uh Iraq. We we survived, uh, everyone's coming home, like this is great. Um, and then kind of get punched in the gut. Um, you know, once you put you know your feet down on on you know safe soil at at the time. And um that's that's kind of when I I made the decision in my head. Like I had missed too many family events, too many weddings, too many funerals. Um, you know, and just with the timeline of getting back to Texas and getting back to Michigan through the whole process of DMOB, you know, I wasn't there for his funeral. And uh that that was kind of a gut punch to me. Um and through you know, my time at um um at Infantry Bullock, you know, I had tore my hamstring, never got a net diagnosed, continued to go through the training, continued to do pre-mobe, continued to deploy, because you know, if you can get through it, it's fine. Right. Um, but for about a year and a half, just all of that continue and without proper, you know, looking at at things and stuff like that, um, it really did some damage to to my lower back, just from compensating and and putting on all the miles through training and then through the deployment. Um, and I knew my body wasn't right. After going through college athletics and and being healthy my entire career, I just knew something um physically was was wrong as well. Um and so ended up, you know, going to my chain of commands, and I don't think things are right here. Um they didn't check me out because of the funeral when I was out in bliss. Um, I was active guard reserve, so they just kind of waved me through and I went home. And the advice I was given is, you know, take a month off, take two months off. And if you're still in pain, then um, you know, go get it checked out. So I did, and turned out that all the compensation and the heavy load that was done over the last two years um had crushed my L4, L5. Um, so all that pain and degenerative, you know, piece was um basically pinching the nerve, which was causing all the issues. So uh went to the doctor and they said, you know, there's a couple things. This um, you know, we can try therapy, but you're you're too far gone for that to really do much. Um your your options are, you know, we can fuse it um in which your your career's probably done. Um, you know, or or you can try physical therapy, which at this point it's your your back is so far gone at this point that it probably won't work. And you're just kind of delaying the inevitable.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

Um, and so I got it fused. And in my head at the time, I was already, you know, one step out, you know, mentally out of out of the game. So I wasn't gonna try to fight um, you know, getting out medically or anything like that. But uh come to find out that uh the first surgery wasn't successful, um, ended up having to get it done again. Oh um, so in within a four to five month period, um, you know, two back fusions, and you know, they're like three to four months, you'll be back on your feet a year later, um, you know, still in pain, still highly immobile, um, you know, just trying to work through it. And um, so, you know, the army gave me the choice, you can fight through this, or you know, from everything that you've experienced, you know, we're put you through a med board, and there was no fight. And send me, send me through the board. Mentally, I needed another 10 years to to retire um, you know, on the active side. And uh, with everything that I had missed and and dealt with on the family side, that uh kind of made the decision easy for me. Um, you know, the body quitting is one thing, but uh mentally didn't have it and to continue. So um decided that uh you know that was probably the best thing for not just me, but also my family, and couldn't be more happy with the decision. Um, you know, at times like going back to sports, you know, your body will tell you when it's time to quit. Um and you know, this you can prolong it a little bit more when you're in a in the career in the army, but uh, you know, the military at some point will tell you when you're done. Yeah. Um, and and that's what happened. And I'm I'm super thankful for the 16 years total that I put in. Um all the great leadership friends. Um, you know, it all serving in command was, you know, one of the highest honors that I have um as a guardsman. Um, you know, working for multiple adjutant generals as an aide-de-camp. Um, my career wasn't normal, um, but it was spectacular and gave me a lot of good life lessons. Um, and and I'm proud of it. Definitely not the normal way to go through things, but uh I'm okay with that, and I've I've enjoyed every moment of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:51

Well, and I want to roll back just a little bit. I don't want to take you, I don't I don't want to like make this a pain point for you, but um uh so many times when we deploy or we spend that amount of time away from home, we forget that the world keeps turning, right? People get older, uh things happen. It feels like the when you lost your nephew, like that was the moment that you realized, hey, the world's been turning and I haven't been in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we all come to that realization at some point. Um, you know, I don't have kids, so it's not like I left a family and and they continue. Now my family continued on just like everyone else does.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:32

Right.

Guard Tempo, VA Costs, Veteran Suicide

SPEAKER_00 1:24:32

Um, my first deployment, I came home and my mom was in a different house. My brother and his family were in different houses, grandparents had moved to different houses, uh, aunt and uncle, like basically my whole support system had shifted, which is fine. Life happens in in different aspects. Um, you know, but you've you've been gone, and um, you know, you you go back and you realize that everyone moved on that year or that year and a half that you were gone. Um and you weren't there, right? You know, so people got married, people had kids, and you try to bring yourself into it. And the second one, you know, having you know, almost three years, almost a full three years of my life gone away from Lansing, Michigan in my family, um, really took the toll. Um, and the the army is always, you know, what are you doing for me next? And that's the kind of attitude that uh that takes it. And it it it beats you up. You know, if you talk to anyone that that's on not just the M Day one week in a month side, but the the full-time side, you know, once you get through an annual training, you're planning the next thing, and then it's the next thing. And we say we're gonna take a break after this next one, we're gonna slow down, and then it's how much more can we do? Um, and that pressure and that build goes on and disrupts so many families. Um, you know, and on the full-time side, the army owns you, so you just suck it up. That's what you get your paycheck for. On the M Day side, you know, you're a teacher, you're an accountant, you're doing whatever, and you throw in a whole nother career, you're a state trooper. Um, yeah, all those individuals and those organizations move on too, on top of the added requirements and added training and stuff like that. And it grows as you become a leader uh and gain more responsibilities and become that, you know, company commander, you become that uh battalion XO or S3 or that battalion commander, the requirements don't go down. You may own a little bit more of your time, but there's so much more thrown on top of you. Um, and it's it's causing a huge amount of grief within the force right now. Um, you know, I could call any one of my AGR friends and people I served with and asked how they're doing, and you know, they get the same response that I do. Um, but they're just still in it. They're they're continuing to fight. Maybe it's they're scared of you know what changes or or shifting at at whatever point in their career they are. Um but the whole force is feeling it, and there's a huge retention issue because of it. Uh the guard is more deployed now than they have been in history. Um, so you start looking at disco responses. The Michigan National Guard responded to you know the worst winter storm last uh last winter, um, historic storms, and they spent you know 45 days away from home. Um, yes, that's what they signed up for. That is absolutely why they put the uniform on and they're happy to do it. All the additional requirements that come through when they're not doing their deployed mission or their their disco response um takes the toll. Um and to be honest, the the administration right now has done a great job of amplifying that service and getting more benefits. So now you have healthcare paid for you. Um now you have, you know, spouses can get education. But that was built off of the demands and the cycles and the deployments and activations of the last eight years. Um and it's taken the toll. Um and the force will tell you that. Um, and they've set things up so that the the future generations coming in um, you know, hopefully won't have to do that that opt tempo and that and that uh that amount of service, but it'll only go up from here. Um, you know, it's a it's a command mindset of of what the leadership is right now. Um and it has been a it's been uh a severe kick to the force, uh, who's always stepped up to do it, but it's also provided a tremendous amount of benefits for the members of the Michigan Army National Guard as well. Um and so it's kind of a double-edged sword. If you want to be relevant, you have to do relevant things to get relevant things uh brought back to you. Um and that takes time, energy, resources. And so if you want that free education, if you want that free health care, um, you're gonna have to show the people of Michigan that you work hard and that you respond and and that you're there for them. You know, that's why you signed up and enlisted and took chose your oath to the guard. Um but it takes a toll. And uh, you know, the future generations will will have that benefit, which is awesome. Um, but it's been, you know, broke off on the backs of the members that are serving right now and have served for the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:13

Yeah. Well, my grandfather always said there's no free launch, right? There's a price to be paid for everything. The other thing too, um, and I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this, that uh a lot of times we look at calculating the cost of going to war. Like, for instance, right now, you hear about how much it costs every day to be in Iraq or Iran. You know, how much it's costing, how much it's costing. One of the things I don't think we do a good job of is uh calculating the cost of bringing our people home because the people that come home are not the same people who left. We break them and then and then uh we talk about how much it's costing to fix them. But we didn't calculate that when we sent them off.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:53

Yeah, the the cost of war is on the back end is tremendous. Yeah. As you look at the Veterans Affairs uh agency, um you know the VA, while it doesn't have the best reputation in care, um, I can tell you that 99.99% of those individuals care because either they're veterans themselves or they know veterans, um, but they're doing it because they're care. But that cost is tremendous. A lot of people don't realize that the VA is the most expensive health care uh program in the world. Um, and that's because you have Vietnam vets, Korean vets, Gulf War vets, GWAP vets that are all in the system. Um, and we do things to them and we owe them the right care, uh, whether it's with disability payments or medical care, um, it all comes at a cost. So as we look at what we're doing in Iran right now, um, that cost will will come in on the you know avenue of how do we you know replenish our arms and and re-um build what was lost. But the the personal you know cost is you know, not just in the VA, but with the families themselves too. Yeah. Um and you have to take all of that into consideration. We've lost more people via suicide, more veterans via suicide than we ever lost in kinetic fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Um that number is, you know, almost 20 times the amount. Um, and that's a true cost too. Um and we see it and we hear, you know, 21, 22 veterans that we lose a day. Um, you know, and uh unfortunately I've I've had to have those calls of service members that I served with or um, you know, buddies that I've known that uh had made that temporary decision uh because they felt alone and they didn't have um that support system that they thought that they needed. Um and and that that decision is permanent and you can never go back from it. Um and and too many of our veterans from from all eras have um made that decision and and that cost should and needs to be calculated. Um and and we do that uh quite frequently. Um, you know, and it it's it's a thing where you know you hear about it, you see the statistic, it's another thing to to go through that phone call. Um, you know, and and I'll tell you that in in both deployments, you know, out of my whole military career, some of the most um, you know, hurtful times uh wasn't necessarily the time that I was, you know, overseas and in in the fight. It's when you get a call saying they can't find someone and they don't know where this person is and they haven't checked in, their family doesn't know. Because deep down, you know, those of us that have experienced it, we have a pretty good idea of of how this one ends. Um, you know, more times than not, it's a it's a tragic story, and leaving behind family and friends, um, you know, sometimes, you know, unfortunately not enough. They find that soldier, they find that airman, um, and you know, they're able to get them the help that they need. Uh, but too many times, you know, until you hear, you know, the inedible inedible that happen, um, you know, your heart just sinks and it's all you can think about. Um, and you just go through and you you try seeing what you can do to help. Usually there's there's not a lot, um, you know, but you just kind of wait for for that secondary phone call. Um, you know, sometimes it's happy, but most of the times it's not.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:26

Yeah, absolutely. I know as a as a commander, I brought all of my soldiers home, not all in one piece, but they all came home. Uh and then from 2007 on, I I've buried someone every year, at least one person. Yeah. I lost all of my people though when they got home. Not not when we served, not when we were over there for a year.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

Yeah, it's it's unfortunately it's a it's a numbers game.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:51

Yeah.

Aide De Camp Life And COVID Fusion

SPEAKER_00 1:33:51

You know, I was in command of uh HHC 125, so I had 215 soldiers, uh one of the biggest companies um, you know, in the in the guard here. And I'm fortunate enough that I didn't lose anyone in the three years of command. Um, had a lot of phone calls where you know people needed some help and some support, and we were able to react and and provide resources and in the right amount of time, that uh it never happened um, you know, when I was in command. You know, haven't had to go go through someone at this point where um, you know, it's a former soldier, but you know, that's that's gonna happen. And it's just unfortunately a numbers game where uh you know you know we always say that you know when we go to these funerals that you know the brotherhood and the sisterhood that's there, we say that we shouldn't always meet, you know, at the funeral. Um but you know, time is busy and people have families and jobs, and sometimes that's the only time that you can, you know, get together and break away. Um, you know, it's so so for me it it's it's bound to happen, you know, and um it's a it's a shame, but that's like you said, that is the cost of of sending American, you know, men and women overseas and and coming home. And we try to give them as all the you know benefits and all the care that we can, but it's bound to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we've covered a lot uh over the last hour and a half or so. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about?

Purpose After Service In Congress

SPEAKER_00 1:35:24

I I think that uh you know, between the first and second deployment uh was some of my um highest accomplishments that that I've had um, you know, through not just the army but through life. Um and then so when I came home um from my first deployment, I ended up becoming the chief intelligence officer for the National Guard here in Michigan. So I was a uh first lieutenant, um technically a directorate with a bunch of colonels, um, just kind of the way things happened and the way the force structure was at the time, um, and spent a year, you know, providing, you know, great anti-terrorism force protection, had uh seven to eight different civilians that worked for me and and under my directorate. Um and I got to brief uh the head general of the Michigan Guard a couple times a week and just keep him updated on a lot of initiatives that he was trying to do. So not just you know, developing and coordinating the intelligence uh training for the whole guard here in Michigan, but uh, you know, the safety and protection piece of it was was under my purview too. Um that led me to to get uh to know General uh Greg Vadney quite well. Um and uh I was very fortunate to be selected as his last aide-de-camp um, you know, as a lieutenant. And um I always say that uh being an aide-de-camp to a general is like being Anne Hathaway and Devil Wears Prada. Like that is the best way to describe that experience um in all of its glory, uh, especially once you start jiving with your general. Um and uh General Badney is probably the best leader that uh that I've been uh uh able to uh sit down with, work for, and uh, and serve. Um you talk about a guy that uh you know just owns the room with his personality um and his ability to work the room in that person-to-person relationship, and that's him. Um he was mightily uh amazingly successful um you know as a as a dual status uh uh soldier, um, so much in the fact that our Governor Snyder brought him out of retirement to serve. Right. Um, you know, he had served as uh the commander of Mississippi during uh Katrina, and that was kind of his his big uh you know operational event. Um so I got to know General Vad Ney quite well in his last year as uh as the adjutant general. Um so I got to understand you know big army things um involved with conversations with you know presidents of Liberia in Latvia, ministers of defense, uh secretaries of defense, uh you name it, senior leaders from across the globe and be in those rooms and understand not just how General Vadney or uh Governor Snyder are successful and what makes them successful, but you're talking going into NATO um you know briefings and understanding how successful people from different regions are, you know, what makes them tick and hearing them. Um so I was very blessed to have that uh opportunity. Um, and fortunate that when uh General Vadnate retired to carry on for almost a year with General Rogers, and you couldn't be more yin and yang on leadership style. Um for better and worse, um General Rogers is that analytical long-term uh decision, strategic decision making and and projection um in is successful for all the reasons that General Vadney wasn't. Um he had it, and um you know, and vice versa. Um they're both significantly amazing leaders uh that have different styles. Um and then so to be able to see the government in in Michigan transition from Governor Snyder to Governor Whitmer, um, I'll forever remember sitting in the first cabinet meeting. Um, and it's Governor Whitmer and all the cabinet members, and just watching everybody try to figure things out, um, and being one of the more senior people in the room, even though I was just a captain in the Michigan Guard. Right. Um, because I had been to cabinet meetings and um the cabinet at the time had been, you know, completely changed over, except for one person. Um and so it was very um you know defining to see just even going across party lines, having a Republican leadership and then having the Democratic leadership come in to give me uh a sense of depth that uh a lot of people can't say that they've they've been shown in a lot of successful leaders. Um and so when we transition to that, uh, you know, your time always comes up to an end. Um you can't be an aid to camp forever. Um it's for me, it was the best job that I ever had. Um but it introduced me to you know people that I would never get to meet um in other um aspects and provided uh a sense of knowledge and wealth of of things, of how things operated at the highest level, but also showed me how to work the room and showed to strategically plan to. Um and so when COVID came around, um, I was selected to go back into the executive team uh to help kind of run through the governor's fusion team. Um so you had people from Health Human Services, MSP. Um our team had three individuals, and we created this fusion cell of how do we fight COVID before COVID becomes a thing after it's already happened. Um so it strikes and it's 2020, and you know, for for us in the Michigan Guard, we had responded to Ebola in Liberia. So we had some knowledge and background of how to fight some of these viruses. Um uh and that wasn't really kind of used in the the opening days of of COVID in Michigan. Um and you know, we kind of sat there in the guard as as the secondary and advisory role that we are. Um and you know it was very frustrating because it was um reactive in nature, and and that's not what we do um in response. We want to be proactive and get in front of these things. Uh so when this advisory group, this fusion cell was was built, um, we started looking and using intelligence features and and things that we we learned in in Liberia Um in going forward of how do we fight COVID. Um, but then it it became a political game of how do we get our information, which we truly believe in, and and we can back our recommendations up, how do we get that in front of the decision makers? And General Rogers uh was very critical in for for us to share with him our belief of what COVID was going to do here in Michigan. Um, and he trusted us, and we built that trust through you know multiple iterations of you know, just working for him personally uh for almost a year and and you know, the skill that we had on the team. And it took a lot of political capital to get in front of the governor to share that some of the experts weren't necessarily making the the best recommendations. Um, but when you go into a room of full of doctors and experts um that are making recommendations, um, you have to be able to share why um and bring numbers and stats and and facts to to things of you know why we think that this is happening and correlate it to what we saw previously. Um and it took us about three to four months to to get to that table to be the provider of information. Um, and it was a wild time. You know, no, I don't think anyone that experienced COVID would say that that's normal. Right. Um, you know, life was was flipped upside down for for everybody. Um, but a sliver of us putting in the work um to to advise some of the senior leaders of hey, this is maybe not necessarily the right path, um, which is you know a very hard thing to do. Going against the norm um is is not an easy uh easy task at all. Uh, but we were able to break through eventually. Um, and you could start to see some of the the policy decisions uh being made to reflect that as well. Um, you know, even after some of the decisions were were counterintuitive to that. Um and and I'll give credit to to the senior leaders um, you know, within the past couple of months, um, you know, we're six years, five years from COVID, um, you know, have come out publicly to say that, you know, some of the information that they made decisions on was um you know inaccurate or not the best information. But you can definitely see at that time when you're providing this information to the head general and head of DHHS and MSP and the governor that uh you know you can break through and and do good for your country. Um and so that that led into a lot of different initiatives that we were successful in um once COVID has decided to uh to really grow the the defense um you know initiatives here in Michigan and kind of filling in that gap between you know getting home from the first deployment, you know, being Anne Hathaway uh and the Devil Wears Prada as the aid to camp, and then through COVID and then leading up to um you know the second deployment. So the the amount of success that uh it continues uh to carry on in the programs that were set up at that time are are some of the the best ones and and as I reflect, like the best parts of my time in the army, um, which has been, you know, again, not not normal, but uh at the end of the day, uh highly uh um reflective and and I appreciated every moment of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:06

Yeah. So we're gonna talk a little bit about after after you uh are uh you go through your medboard, I'm assuming you're medically retired, correct? What what happens after that? And how did it feel to know like, hey, I'm not putting this uniform on again?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:21

You know, a lot of veterans and a lot of people that get out, well, we say that uh they need to find purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:27

Yeah.

Take Your Own Path And Closing

SPEAKER_00 1:45:28

Um, and I was extremely fortunate that uh I had served um in the guard and and got to know um at the time state rep and state senator Tom Barrett. Um when I got out uh I was able to secure a green to gold fellowship um with the congressman who's now serving as the congressman of the 7th district here in Lansing. Um and it's a program the Department of Defense has done uh for certain individuals of of you know E5 and below, CW2 and below, O three and below, um, that they want to gain experience in the the political realm and and get involved in in Congress and the Senate uh as a whole, they developed this two-year program for you. Um and for the Congressman, it's it's it's you know, free chicken. Uh it doesn't come out of their budget. They get uh someone to add to their staff. Um, you know, and so I had known Tom, uh Congressman Barrett for uh 10 years that we had served together, uh put my name in the hat, and um, you know, had a couple of really good interviews of our our time and um had interviewed with the district director Ron, who had I had known through my time as an aide-de-camp. Um so now my boss, you know, below the congressman I had worked with on different things in the state legislator. Um, and I was going to do a lot of VA um claims and issues and Department of Defense policy type stuff like that, um, having the experience that uh had built up. Um and finding that that kind of niche to help veterans, uh, to know the system, to go through the system, um, having my mom to rely on and all of her expertise from being in retired in the VA, um, you know, finding the niche to help veterans um was really kind of what eased that process that not a lot of veterans get when they, you know, take off the uniform. Um, and so immediately I found the ability to to connect and find my next sense of purpose. And if you can't do that, uh it's a long road because you know, from from sports to the military, I always had the team. Um, and it it's critical. And in between playing football and joining the army, um, I remember what it felt like to not be a part of something um and not have that sense of worth and that uh daily thing to wake up to. Um so I knew coming out of the military that it was critical that I find something. Um and sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Uh sometimes you get to be both. Um and uh so I continued on uh with the congressman. Um didn't know it at the time. Uh didn't know what I wanted to do full-time with my career. Um, but uh the the district director Ron, who had interviewed me and and hired me, um he ended up leaving for another position about a month into you know my green to gold fellowship. Um you know, and in that time I kind of looked around as as one of the older people of staff and uh you know had some ideas of if I was the district director of the congressional district that I grew up in and spent a majority of my 40 years of life on, like this is what I think would would um you know be not just a service to the congressman, but the 800,000 people that we represent here. Um got a call from the chief of staff out in DC and uh he had asked if I had heard what's what had happened and and Ron was moving moving on and told him, yep, I understand uh you know there's a position open and um kind of had the conversation of uh feeling things out of is this something that uh I would want to do? Is this something where I could see my career? Um and again, it was never the plan um you know at the time when I I got out of the army to to come into politics and and go forth, but uh again, lucky and good. Right. Um I uh ended up talking to him and said, you know, I need about 24 hours to to think about it, to put something together. Um, you know, I would like to put my name in the hat, but I don't know if my thoughts going forward are what a a director does for a congressional district. Um, and uh put together uh a brief. You know, I kind of went back to my chief of plans days of, you know, this is my plan and this is what's going on, and figured I was pretty successful at planning how do we get out of Iraq and Syria. I could put something together to to figure out how to serve the people of the 7th district here. Um so presented my my plan to him and got a didn't get a call for about 48 hours. Um, so we had talked on Monday, gave him the plan on Tuesday, Thursday night. Uh I get a call. And uh, you know, I thought I was in trouble, but I didn't want uh, you know, didn't want to push the issue. Um, you know, and and Kyle's sitting there and he's like, How how did you do this? Like, what's what is this plan? Where did you come up with it? And you know, I kind of reverted back to, well, I did research, took a look at uh, you know, there's not a lot of publications out there, but there's some that can can tell you how to to run a good district and organizational leadership of of seven to ten people is is pretty easy after you've led 200. Right. Um, you know, everything's a little different, but you can always tie it back to different things. Um, you know, you've got your commander and the congressman, you've got his intent. Um, you know, and as long as I'm meeting his intent and driving forward, um, these are my what I think the priorities should be, and these are my recommendations for him. Um and uh it turns out that, you know, at the very minimum, I can put together a very good. Plan forward, um, executing it, we'll see. Right. Um, but uh he shared that uh with uh Congressman Barrett and his wife Ashley. Um, you know, and they they had some conversations. And um, you know, I'd only met with with Congressman Barrett maybe three or four times in that month, um, you know, that I had done VA stuff with him, and and um so still getting to to reacquaint myself with him as a congressman and and what this looks like. And we sat down, had a conversation, and you know, it it really is a team effort. Um, and I'll I'll be honest, uh, if it wasn't for serving for Congressman Barrett in this district, it's my my goal isn't to um to go forth and and be a career politician. So I was very specific in in when he, you know, we had this conversation of, you know, why do you want to do it? Well, first thing is I want to do it because I believe in you. Um, you've shown me the leadership that uh, you know, that I saw in General Vadney and General Rogers. I see those same leadership qualities that made them great generals, um, and and other politicians around the world that I've been able to meet and and be introduced to. Um, you know, I see that in you, I believe in you, and then I believe in this area. Um so being able to represent the the congressional district where I grew up in and where I I live um meant a lot for me. Um and you know, I'm committed to to doing the best that I can for the people of the 7th district. Um, and it it helps when your boss is an amazing uh individual, um, that you know he's he's moral, his leadership is is there, uh he does what he says. Um, you know, whether you voted for him or you didn't, he ran on specific things and he's doing those things um out in DC. And I can believe in that type of leadership. Um and so if you asked me a year ago what what my life was gonna be outside of of the army, um I was gonna teach innovation. I was gonna be a teacher, you know, I had subbed a couple days and thought maybe, you know, this is what life could be in a very relaxed, non, you know, very slow op tempo compared to uh to what I was used to, and and kind of uh you know, take the breaks um and pump them a little bit, um, but ended up in an amazing situation to um to provide for the community again. Um and this time it's it's it's more direct. It's there there's no deployments, you know, in in Congress over to the Middle East or no activations going to you know serving you know northern Michigan during a snowstorm. Um you know, and it's not that it doesn't have its long days and nights, but what we do here is is impactful. Um and that's what uh what drives me is having that impact every day, um, being able to serve the people in my community. Um and like I said, it's it's a matter of luck. You know, we put a lot of hard work into it, um, a lot of experience that that came from you know basic training all the way through to um you know getting into this position. It's all built up. Um and I'm I'm very um thankful for the opportunity to to continue service of the community and and continue to to you know serve in that capacity.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:17

Yeah. Well, and I can see a life of service, uh whether it's um your parents or whether it's it's been your career all along. Um, you know, as we uh start to kind of wrap up our conversation though, I do have like one final question to ask you. Um, and that is, you know, looking over your life, and and I think it's interesting that that it's your life is not it's like when you say you're an army brat, you kind of caveat that with not the typical army brat, right? But I feel like that's been your whole life, has it been typical? Um, and and so as we close, I'm just curious, you know, when someone's watching this or listening to this a hundred years from now, what what would you like them to take from not only our conversation today, but really your life and how you've lived it?

SPEAKER_00 1:55:04

Take your own path. Um people will always try to tell you how to do something, and generally they have the the best um recommendation at heart and they don't want to do harm. Um but don't be afraid to do something that you want to do. Um, make a decision that impacts your life or your career. Um, you know, whether it's school, choosing college is usually the first one that uh that populates uh for for young teens to decide what the next four or five years of their life is. Um you don't have to go to the same school that your parents or your family went to. Um you don't have to study the same thing. Um those that recommend you to go to places do so, you know, with care. And it's a calculated decision, but you know, we have free will here in America. Um, and there's a reason that we have it, and it's amazing. It's what makes a lot of what we do here in America so so awesome. Not everybody has that. Um, but don't be scared to take the path less traveled. Um, you know, whether you started from a wealthy family, a middle class family, or you know, a family that has struggled um to find its place, uh, there is opportunities across the board to to climb out or to get wherever you want to go. Um and it doesn't always have to be the same path that someone has taken. Um, how many times I heard in my career that you should do this or you should do this, this should be your next position. Well, you know, when I went through OCS and Bullock and became an intel officer, um, it wasn't a military police lieutenant that they put and gave the job to. Uh, it was the intel officer, uh, which was unique and non-standard. Um when I came home from my deployment, it wasn't the captain or major or colonel that they gave the directorate to. Uh it was the second or the first lieutenant who had the most recent experience and uh had shown that you know they can provide, you know, program, systematic program piece. Um as an Intel officer, I became an infantry company commander. I wasn't the infantry officer, it was the intel guy that had proven that he can succeed without going through the typical route. Now there's always gonna be a day of certification and and recognition on that aspect of it. Um, but it doesn't mean that uh you have to grind like everyone else does. You got to choose your own path. Um, you know, most of my staff here uh in the congressman office has double the amount of political experience that I do. Um, and that's great. And I r rely on their experience. And but it doesn't mean that at 22 that the only way to be a district director or or going forward to be in Congress is you have to be that entry-level staff assistant after you interned somewhere. Um get good experience, select your leaders and mentors uh appropriately. Um look at them for their character and their personality and what they bring to the table outside of their resume and choose good people to work for. Um, you know, through all organizations, uh, there's gonna be someone that you don't like or that you don't get along with. Choose what you do like, what makes sense out of that leadership style and and that uh um, you know, that type of uh that leader. Um, but then go find a good leader that you do respect, that you want to mentor and ask them uh you know to be their mentee, ask them for their experience. And um I've been blessed that some of that's been inherent, that I just naturally fell in line with great leaders um that recognized hard work and and my dedication to my craft. Um I've approached good leaders and just aligned myself with with amazing people. Um, and they've all been successful for different reasons. Um, but sometimes you got to search that out, but you don't have to take the path everyone tells you.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:03

All right. Well, thanks for sharing that. Thanks for taking time out of your busy day to sit and talk with me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:08

Yeah, this has been wonderful. I appreciate it.