From Gang Life To The Army (Jesse Krewson)

Jesse Krewson doesn’t tell a “clean” redemption story. He tells the real one, where poverty, identity, and a missing support system push a kid in Grand Rapids toward gangs, weed, and dropping out before high school even starts. Jail becomes routine, not shocking. Then one person steps in, his grandfather, and everything shifts: Job Corps, a GED, getting clean long enough to pass a drug test, and a decision to join the United States Army. 

We talk about the shock of basic training at Fort Benning, the culture at Fort Campbell, and what it’s like to deploy as infantry to Iraq and Afghanistan. Jesse describes mission confusion, relentless stress, the moments that still replay, and how combat can follow you home as insomnia, hypervigilance, and PTSD. We also get into the harder aftermath: marriage strain, failed coping strategies, a bad conduct discharge, and how quickly a soldier can go from “asset” to “problem” when trauma collides with bad choices. 

But this conversation doesn’t stop at loss. Jesse shares how faith, community, and service helped him rebuild from the ground up, including homelessness in Kentucky, returning to Michigan, working in homeless outreach, pursuing college and seminary, and now serving through a food pantry, veteran advocacy, and support for returning citizens. If you care about veteran mental health, addiction recovery, reentry, and what real second chances look like, this one will stay with you. 

If Jesse’s story hits home, subscribe, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review so more people can find it. What’s one turning point that changed your life direction?

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Today is Monday, June 29th, 2026. We're talking with Jesse Cruson, who served in the United States Army. So good morning, Jesse. Good morning. Now I know we met just a couple days ago, and here we are doing the interview, so I appreciate you coming out today.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

All right. We'll start out real simple.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

When and where were you born? I was born in 1984 in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Really? Yes, sir. 1984, the year after I graduated high school.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

The Tigers won the championship.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Yeah, it's been a while, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

It has, yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

So did you grow

Childhood And Single Mom Struggles

SPEAKER_04 0:34

up in Grand Rapids?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

I did, yes, sir. All right. Uh where at? Um the northeast side of Grand Rapids around the Creshton Project area. I mean, I lived on all sides of the city, but uh mostly on the northeast side.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Brothers and sisters. I have an older brother named Chris. Uh-huh. Okay. So you're the baby of the family. I am the baby, yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

Yeah. Well, talk to me about growing up uh in Grand Rapids.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Oh well, grew up with a single mother, my mom, Neva. Um we were we were pretty poor, but I didn't know it, I guess, at the time. Um welfare, all the stuff like that. Uh I was probably a uh not the best kid growing up. Um got in a lot of trouble. Um it was it was it was a little rough with the evictions and the welfare, and you know, as I got older, if you could kind of see the separation between you and other kids. Kids were wearing Jordans and Nikes, and I was we were still shopping at uh at Family Dollar for stuff. Um so that that was a little rough, but I I I um I cleaned the sports as a young kid, so I always loved basketball, running. I did cross country and track.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Now you said you got in some trouble as a kid, but do you find that maybe sports helped you not get in as much trouble?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

It it it did. Early on, I caught on to sports and and I did really great. As I got older, um not feeling like I had the support of my parents, I kind of drifted away from all of that. You know, I uh I I remember having this like ideology in my hi, well, if I just find a girl on Section 8, I'll be all right. And you know, that didn't pay uh it didn't pay dividends, and so uh as I got older, the um the sports kind of went away. I feel like I had the the uh the talent to actually go further with sports and to college and all that, but just thinking back how my mom and dad they never came to any of my games. Um and we won the City League Championship when I was in sixth grade, and I continued to play in uh seventh and eighth grade. I never went to high school. Um and so uh gangs, drugs, girls, all this stuff was that's plagued my childhood. Yeah. How oh how early did you get involved in in gangs? Gangs, it must have been around uh uh sixth grade, I would say.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

That's so young.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Well, we you know, we were kids running around doing whatever we wanted to do. I think a marijuana got introduced to me. My mom smoked and they would party and so uh I think I was in about fourth grade when I, you know, found the weed and you know, uh uh it didn't trying to roll the joint at first, it didn't work out. It turned out like a bag, but we found the pipe and then we were able to make it work. But uh yeah, introducing it to that stuff, and I realized that's kind of set me behind in life,

Sports Fade And Gang Life Begins

SPEAKER_00 3:21

um just doing that stuff as a young kid. But you know, you get older, you get wiser.

SPEAKER_04 3:25

Yeah. Well, it it must be hard as a kid because I mean that's there that wasn't abnormal, right? I mean, for you Yeah, it was normal. Right. Look looking back, you're like, oh my gosh. Yeah. But but at that point, that was just that was life, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, it was. It was it was pretty normal. Um you know, being a mixed kid in a white family, uh, it it you kind of fell out of place. You know, my my mom, her last name is Bullimer, my dad's last name is Brown, and my last name is Crucent. So you gotta have all these oddities, so I went out and found my own tribe. Um, and and and you know, we kind of helped each other do the wrong thing. I don't think none of our parents encouraged it, but but we did. We we kind of found our own thing, and you know, girls and smoking weed was uh was our thing. Hip hop music was big. I loved Tupac and all this stuff like that. So we thought we thought we were doing something, but again, it just turned out to just slow you down. Did you feel at the time though that like the gang brought brought you that family that you didn't have? Yeah, it was definitely filling a void. Um Yeah, I guess you didn't yeah, it it didn't it didn't I don't think that's what I was necessarily doing, but it was uh, you know, yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah, it did kind of bring me that that sense of who actually really cares about me. But you know, as I got older I realized that, you know, we we're only coming together because we have a common purpose is and getting high and you know, girls and and destruction and whatever else we were we had playing and plotting for the day. Basically a lot of us were all skipping school. That's where the kind of the gang kind of came from. We would all meet up and go down to the trestles and and hang out and stuff like that. But I guess it was a family at first, and then as you got older you realized this ain't going nowhere.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

So you you dropped out of school, what, like eighth, ninth grade then?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Eighth grade. Well, I did eighth grade three years in a row, and then um then they just like passed me on to this place called Schools and Cities, which was a run room building on division. Um, and and that didn't last long, so I I never I never stepped foot in a high school.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Okay. So what happened I mean, you just kind of left school, so what happens after that?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Um, so it not much. Couch surfing. I mean, with with my parents, I I know that they loved me, but they didn't have any kind of plans for me. I was free to do whatever I wanted to do. Yeah. And that's that's kind of how I felt. And um, I would I would stay at my friend's house, just surf around. I got a job young at 16, uh working at Myers. I worked at uh TGI Fridays as a cook. And so I just started working because being poor like that, you know, that's the one thing that you feel like you're lacking is money.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Um, not really seeing the value of education at that point. So uh yeah, now working and and and uh hanging out and partying.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

I don't know why I thought that that was a thing to do, but I guess when people are young, well, and if you look back, like what you're 42 now, right? So uh eighth, ninth grade, sixteen, that seems awful young. Looking back, like when you were sixteen, you were like, I'm a man.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, you thought you you said it right the first time. It was normal where I was I I mean I could find, you know, 30 other kids doing the same thing that I was doing, um, really not making in school and hanging out. But now looking back for sure, like you know, uh how far that set me behind my peers that were actually doing the right thing and making it through school and getting jobs, going on to college. Um, yeah, it it it really, it really is uh it was too young, but it's what we knew. It's like the the traps were set and we were falling into all of them. We just didn't know it.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

Right, right. You think the difference between you and you just mentioned like some of your other peers who went on through school and college, you think the the difference was just support system?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Um the the support system is probably a big piece of it. Yeah. But it's uh it's also the the the mentality that somebody would have and who do they think they are. And if you if you're lost inside, you don't know who you are, then you're you're down to falling any trap and you're developing your own ideology. Um so yeah, the support system is big, but I can't say that there wasn't good people along the way that were trying to, I just wasn't catching what they were putting down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

You were smoking what they were rolling though, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah, no, for sure. Yes, sir. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, we were testing it out from downtown brown to to the mid-grade. We were trying it all.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. So you you kind of just bumped around a little bit, and then and so what happened? Um, when did you finally like, uh, I'm not doing this anymore?

SPEAKER_00 8:12

It took a while. Um I it wasn't for till I was 21 till I finally uh went to the military, but um from about 16 to 21, I was, you know, couch surfing. I could go stay with my mom, I could stay with my friends, you know, some of them had good jobs and they were already having kids, and so there was always an open place for me. I was loved, I was, I was, even though I was doing the wrong things, I was still a good person.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um so I was always welcome places. Uh and so, you know, working those couple

Dropping Out And Surviving On Jobs

SPEAKER_00 8:42

jobs, Meyer. I worked at Meyers, TGI Fridays, and um I went at 18, I went to Bricklair and Allied Craft Workers Union here in Lansing. Um, I did that, and that that that brought me some opportunities to, you know, I'm I'm an 18-year-old kid making making a thousand dollars a week. That was pretty amazing, you know, with you know, no education and stuff like that. So um seeing money and and all that and seeing how everybody else was advancing, I realized I needed something different. It just wasn't kicking in exactly what I needed to do. And then my grandfather, um, on my mom's side, Grandpa Crusin, he he he was talking to me when I was 18. If you aren't doing nothing in a couple years, you need to go to the military. And um, you know, at the at that time, we were at a time of war, they need people at this point. No matter what my my criminal history was or anything like that, they need people. And so I got a couple waivers to get in, and um, that's what really started changing my mind because there was this whole other side of life that I didn't know. Discipline, hard work, determination, being part of a team, um, all that stuff. I I I didn't I didn't have it. Some if I didn't like it, I wasn't doing it. I feel like, you know, with your parents not really having a plan for your future. You're kind of just a free spirit out there, just making up the rules, not understanding the hierarchy of things, the big picture of how everything works. And so I was just doing whatever I wanted to do, whatever was fun, a pleasure seeker, so to speak. And um, it was my grandfather that reeled me in. He's like, no, this ain't gonna work it in the future. And, you know, he took me aside when I was 21, and um I uh I went into job core, um, went into the security trade there, and and uh, you know, it took me to to live with him for about three or four months so I could get clean enough uh to pass a drug test. I had to I had to completely lift out of my situation um to even pass a drug test. But that was my grandfather who cared enough to pull me aside and be a support system and tell me, hey, there's something better here, you need to you need to go the other direction.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

Yeah. You said something really important a few minutes ago, and um you said you were doing like bad things, but you're not a bad person. Yes, sir. I think that's really important. Like people people make poor choices, doesn't make them bad people. No, sir. It makes them poor choosers at the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, so well, you know, when your opportunities, but at some point when your opportunities become really slim, then the things that you may do, um, especially as a young kid, it could be impressing a girl, it could be I just want to go to Cedar Point with the rest of them. What you may do to get money or to create opportunity for you because you missed out on doing it the the old-fashioned way, working and you saving and being consistent, then you you kind of look for opportunity, uh cutting corners, and that can get you in trouble. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Yeah. So I'm uh based on that, I'm I'm thinking you've been arrested before?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Oh man, multiple times. Really? Yeah, as a kid, I was I was I think before I was 18, I must have had seven curfew violations, um, five minor in possessions before I was 21 of alcohol. Um I when I before I turned 18, I was uh I was living I was living in a house and the house got raided. There was it was a noise violation.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

And so the house got raided, and

Arrests, Jail, And Normalized Chaos

SPEAKER_00 12:14

I was selling everybody in the house. There was about five roommates, and I was and I was selling all of them weed, and when it got raided, um I went to jail for for uh possession and distribution of marijuana. And uh I lost my license for I was still 17. I lost my license before I ever got it. And so I have all these law violations for driving, driving with no insurance, driving no license, driving with improper plates. Uh so I had all this stuff that was always setting me behind. So it felt like clockwork every six months I was going back into jail because I'm still trying to drive, but I don't, I'm not legally, I couldn't. Um I even went into the military with no driver's license. That was one of the things I got a waiver for. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

What's that what's that experience like? What was that experience like for you to to go to jail?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

I mean, that's um it if it felt it felt it felt kind of normal because a lot of my friends that I was hanging out with, my world was kind of small at that point before I went to the military, so everybody around me it felt like was doing that. Um I I there there there was one experience I had when I was in middle school where I went out to Kellogg's. I left the inner city of Grand Rapids and went out to a suburb. And I seen the way everybody was living out there, they were happy, they were supported. And I did that for a while, and then I went back to Grand Rapids. I wanted to be back around the things that I knew. And everyone there is like just the everyone that I hung out with was uh was into the drugs and all this other stuff, probation. You'd be on surveillance with your probation officer where they're monitoring you all the time. So depending on where I was at, it felt normal. It felt like, oh, this is what some people are doing. I I had friends that, you know, made it through school and went on to college and were doing good things. I was still friends with them, um, but the majority of the people I hung out with were, you know, in and out of this cycle, you know, of going in and out of jail.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

And so yeah, it it just felt normal.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Which is interesting. I think for for people listening who haven't experienced that, right? They're like, oh my gosh, that must have been scary or terrifying or whatever words they want to use. But like you're just like, oh, it's just it is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It is. It feels like, well, you know, you when you get over, you gotta get over all the bitterness of it. You can because you kind of feel like the you were kind of groomed to do this. For people to have an opportunity, that means people gotta lose their opportunity. And so it feels like the trap was laid, we're living this life, uh, you're going in and out of jail, nobody's helping you. I think in my mindset was you know, that there's a right way to do this. But there's not really a right way to do the wrong thing. So to keep going over that thing, man, well, I just I can't do it that way. I I gotta not hang around with this person, or maybe they're snitching, and you know, you have all these wrong, wrong inclinations of why this happened, but never get into the root cause, you're not gonna get something good out of doing something bad.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Right. So you uh you your grandfather probably saw the handwriting on the wall. Like, we got to do something. So 21, you uh go and talk to the the recruiter?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, I was I was 20. So I was 20 when it first started. Uh it was first it was talking to my grandfather, then it was talking to the recruiter. Yeah. Um he you know, he wanted uh he wanted me to go to the navy, but the navy, you know, the navy was like, no, with the law violations. And the army was uh is is where we landed at. Uh I remember Sergeant So Well Um talking with him. And yeah, yeah, yeah. So the recruiter out on the East Belt line in Grand Rapids, yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

So you go down there, you talk to him. Um how long before you like go to maps and do all that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yep. So I uh I it it probably was about about eight months. Um because I I started talking to the recruiter um right as I started in Job Corps. I knew that that's what I wanted to do. That's why when I went into Job Corps, I went into the security trades. They had all these trades for different things, but I was security, I'm gonna go to the military. Because

Recruiter, Job Corps, And Getting Clean

SPEAKER_00 16:17

my that was my grandfather, that was my grandfather's uh guidance, and so I'm trying to I'm trying to please him and and and do what he's saying because life wasn't going anywhere and I was going in out of jail. And so it took about eight months. I passed through job core really quick. Um, you know, it it only took me about three months to get my G D and then another couple months um to uh pass through the securities trade, and from there I'm uh I'm just waiting on on the on the recruiter and the ASVAB and going to MEPs and all that stuff like that. So yeah, it didn't take very long.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

Okay. And uh, you know, uh it's it's curious to me, right, that you looked at I know I understand the reasoning behind security trades was because you were thinking military, but when you look at your background, it seems almost the opposite of what you were doing. Yeah so did you take some lessons away from your time at at Job Corps?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Definitely. Um yeah, Job Core it so the Grand Rapids Job Corps is full of people from Detroit, Chicago, Flint, and I'm from Grand Rapids, and back then the Job Corps was a lot different. Like they'd go on on breaks in the morning and breaks for lunch, and people would go outside and smoke blunts right outside. And and you know, um, and and so the the lessons were there is like well they're just doing the same thing that was happening out in the world. And so uh being in the security trade, we'll well now we're trying to kind of police some of this stuff up. You know, a teacher would get something stolen, we're in the security trade, so we're kind of trying to look and hunt it down. Um it it it showed me that whatever kind of gangster or thug that ever I thought I was, I was nothing compared to these guys. So uh You just sort of playing at it. Yeah, I was just playing at it. And so uh seeing how Job Corps operated, uh, it really was it really gave me a uh um a kick in the butt like, hey, you need to straighten up. Um and so uh yeah, there's a lot of lessons there, but um yeah, I guess nowadays when I look at Job Corps, it's it's a much more structured program with a lot more rules. They weren't they're not letting people, you know, uh uh smoke, smoke weed during the breaks and go get go get liquor at night and you know, come back. It's a it's a it's a little more lockdown, but yeah. No, I appreciate I appreciated that there was an opportunity like that to just get your GED. And I imagine how hard it would have been for me if I couldn't go to a place and live there and be locked down. Like Yeah, um I I I don't think that I would have um I would have followed through with the with the program. I mean, just judging off of it, even after graduating job core, um trying to pass a drug test was hard because I I still hung out with the same people, I was still going to the same place. And so looking at the fact that I couldn't even get clean makes me think that I wouldn't even, if I had to go every day to a uh a place to to do the pretest and take the test for GD, that I wouldn't have followed through on it. So being in a controlled environment with structure actually allowed for me to uh follow through with that. And now I can look back and realize, you know, the importance of of uh because high school doesn't seem that important. It didn't to me, but now looking back, I could see, well, if you made it through high school, you have four years of doing something consistent. And that that's the kind of structure that that you need that'll help you succeed in life. And JobCore provided that for me where I lacked it. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

Now you said something interesting to me uh earlier on uh when we were talking about opportunity and support systems, things like that, and you said that in order for one person to get an opportunity, someone else has to lose an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

You really do you still feel that way? Can we expand on that a little bit? Because it was a really interesting comment.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Yeah, uh it's it's it's for me for me, first of all, I'll I'll disclaimer about that is is you know, I I guess going through everything I went through to make it to where I'm at, there's a lot of bitterness, and I guess they would call it um uh running the victim Olympics or whatever like that. But I still see uh where where you know ghettos and things like that, like they're created. People, you know, drugs, they can find everybody that's running around here with a you know $100 or less worth of drugs and got them all locked up, but they can't find the one person that's bringing it all in.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

And it seems like a setup to me. And so I feel like these ghettos and these low-income neighborhoods that they were

Are The Traps Designed That Way

SPEAKER_00 20:48

they're set traps on person. For my kid to make it, that means somebody has to not make it. And so, you know, for people to set themselves up really good, they have to have people that are gonna fill the jails and the court systems and all that other stuff. Nobody's really trying to, um, well, I mean it's nobody's trying, but um it's it's not gonna, it's because there's a there's a design to have people fail. I feel like it's designed in there for people to fall into these traps. That's why we, you know, uh hip hop is, you know, a number one selling genre, and you know, all people know all this stuff about these, you know, rappers and killings and all that stuff. It seems to be politicized. It's like they're setting a trap for people that don't know any better, and then they're providing the drugs and they're providing all this stuff. And when you lock people up in jail is a perfect opportunity while you got them sober, you got their attention to be teaching them, at least showing them how reality actually works or how the systems actually work. But we don't do anything. We have them 23 hour lockdown and not really teaching them anything. You might throw them a Bible or a couple books, but you know, uh teaching them some ethics and some morals. And, you know, I feel like correction officers, they should be um, they should be social workers. A person goes down. Jail, they lose everything. You know, their stuff gets stolen, they get kicked out of the place, they live, they come out homeless. And I think that we're creating these cycles and this homelessness. I know people would, most people would say that, you know, it's your decisions that brought you there, but um if the trap's being set, then somebody's gonna fall into it. I think that's the way you allow your children to get ahead is if there's traps for other but other people. And I feel like they're they've they've been created and they've been set that way. And you know, we have a lot of programs that help. And I always believe doing something is better than doing nothing. But if the things that we're doing are aren't actually changing the rate of homelessness or the kids shooting and the killing, if it's only getting worse every year, then what are we really doing? Because I think that if we take all of our technology and our knowledge and we really try to fix these problems, it'd be fixed. But there's there's big money behind uh court systems and lawyers, and so I just feel like it's a it's a setup at some in some points.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Okay. Yeah, I just wanted to get your your take on all of that because it was a very interesting comment. And I never really looked at it looked at it through that lens. So thanks for kind of sharing that with me. I I really I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I know that doesn't sound popular, it doesn't seem you know, I but again having to get all get over all that because I made it out of it, so it's possible to make it out of it, and it really comes down to our choices.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Right. Well, I there's a there's a fine line, right? Because there's the choices that you make and then there's the opportunities that you have, but there are people who who are successful even though all those traps are set, right? So it's a combination of those things. And if you're making the wrong choices and falling into these traps, right, you're you're stuck. But sometimes it's hard to make the right choices, just like we'll go back to you're getting ready to join the military, one of the things you had to do is stop smoking weed and taking drugs. That's right. How hard was that?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

It it was a challenge because it's what I known. You know, um addiction is a disease, and you don't realize how it's affecting you and um the the to fight the temptation. Uh at one point you're fighting the the people around you, you're fighting, you know, what they're doing, you know, how they're living, their standards of living, and you're trying to separate yourself before you learn anything different. And so to do that, you feel you feel alone, isolated. And so that that was the only way that I made it through is going to hang out with my my 70-year-old grandfather, the commander at the Nuego VFW, hanging out with these old guys and you know, going out on their boats and fishing, and you know, every Wednesday we have a burgers and Fridays we have steaks at the club. And uh that was that was how I was able to do it is to completely separate myself but put something else in place. Because if you separate yourself, or for me, when I separated myself, it wasn't gonna be long, maybe a week I could go alone like that. Before I'm gonna bust out, I need to go do something, um, being young like that. And so my grandfather taking me out to Cedar Springs out of the city um into the country there, it really provided a way and it replaced it. Yeah, it was boring. I felt like, you know, an oddball. I'm you know, this little mixed kid hanging out with all these older white veterans and stuff, but you know, they accepted me like their own. And, you know, they were proud of what I was doing. And, you know, I don't think everybody knew while I why I was there, you know. My grandfather knew, like, yeah, this guy, you know, he can't pass a drug test, he needs to be separated, and once I could do that, I was I was ready. But that uh the job core and then being separated with my grandfather really caring helped me prepare me to go into the military.

SPEAKER_04 25:35

Okay. And that that makes sense. And you know, so I I look at it i in this way as well. So I I I don't drink, right? But I do hang out with people who do drink.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

But sometimes people look at you funny because you don't do whatever it is that they're doing. That's right. And so you just can't hang out with those people. That's right. Right? And that's that's where you were you were at. Yeah, you had to do something different to make that change. So you finally get in to the military.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Um, where did you go to basic training? I went to Fort Benning. Oh. Fort Benning, Georgia. I guess uh what time of year was this? This was in the summer. You know, actually, my first day of basic training was my birthday. Really? Yeah, I rem I remember that like it was yesterday. It was it was well, you know, you go to 30th AG where you're just adjusting for some weeks, and then finally when they're ready to take you to your your first day, you go you march up Sand Hill there, and uh it was my first day, and and you know, we go on the Chow Hall, and I'm trying to get some cake and all this. Nope, get up. I didn't get to eat anything. Yeah, um uh yeah, it was my the first day of basic was my birthday, turning 21. Yeah, they didn't throw you a party, did they? No, no, they actually I didn't get to eat at all. But to I went to bed sour that night. Yeah, I'll bet. I'll bet you were like, Well, what am I thinking here? Yeah, yeah. They tricked me in 30th AG, you could eat whatever you want to do, and then your first day of basic, it's like all these rules. If you don't got your feet together, then they get up, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

I

Basic Training Shock And Discipline

SPEAKER_04 27:03

remember uh we're going to I don't know if it was basic or some other training, but when uh when the last person sat down, everybody had to get up. Right. So you had to eat fast.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, you had to eat fast, yeah. Yeah, don't get no cake or no pop either.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

Well, talk to me about basic training. I mean, so you had this whole life beforehand, and then your grandfather helped you out, and now you're in basic training. Talk to me what that what was that experience like for you?

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Oh, basic training was the hardest thing that I ever did. So basic was a it was a shock to my system. Um, with no discipline, no structure in my life. My parents kind of just let me do whatever I wanted to do. I was a free spirit. And now from from day one, being yelled at, being screamed at, told what to do, when to do it, how to do it, um it was just a total shock. You know, be never being away from my mom that long was was a was a uh was kind of a a big thing. I remember missing her, you know, a couple weeks in, and and uh, you know, it it definitely was a shock to my system. I wasn't ready for it. I I do believe that was the hardest thing that I ever did in the military, only because um it was such a drastic change for me.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

You made it through though. Yeah, I made it through. Yeah, yeah. Were there other folks there that were like in that similar situation, like, oh my God, what am I doing?

SPEAKER_00 28:21

There there was. I I remember um uh a guy from Detroit, Antoine Babbitt, you know, it was it was all new for him too. Like this whole thing, you know, so a lot of guys in the infantry feel like they wanted to be there, like, oh, you know, they want to shoot guns and do do do these things uh that that combat veterans wanted to do. Not me. I was told that becoming being 11 Bravo, that was that was that was my um my bonus, you know, getting get in that job. And so uh I didn't I didn't really realize what I was getting into being an infantry man. But a lot of other people there, they kind of knew, they kind of knew what it was. But there was a guy from Detroit, uh me and him, last time, like, man, this is crazy. Like he's waking us up. I remember I remember one night they um somebody messed up, but they're always looking for people to mess up. And and they got us out there cleaning these rocks. I thought this is the stupidest thing ever, all night long. Took our sleep away and we're cleaning rocks, it didn't stop. We still had to get up and form, do a formation and do PT and still have a full day. And so um I I didn't understand at the time why we were doing it, but I'm sure it was part of a training and discipline. Well, you're gonna do a lot harder things than these, and so um, yeah, yeah. There was there was other guys I could relate with uh um that that I realized it was just as much shock to them as it was me. Find that helpful? Like knowing you're not the only guy through the show. I did, yeah, no, yeah, no. So I was uh uh as a kid, I was uh uh I ran I ran cross country and um I was really good at that. So I was always I was always I wasn't getting smoked for not being in shape or anything like that. But the other guys who was a shock to their system, I would see they get in trouble because they weren't making the runs or something like that. So it made me feel a little bit better that I wasn't the lowest of the low. Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

There's always someone not doing quite as well as I'm doing. That's right. Yeah, we we were a help to each other because and and where I was lacking discipline and understanding why everything was happening where it even even um taking orders, you know, uh was a was a big thing for me. Um it really had to they had that they had to smoke they call it getting smoked, but I got smoked frequently because um again I had no filter. I would why why? What are you gonna do? You ain't like you're gonna hurt me. All questions you shouldn't be asking in basic training, right? Yeah. But they whipped me into shape, you know. I remember having CQ duty about two months in, and drill sergeant called on the phone, and I'm yes, drill sergeant, and the other guy's looking at me. Why are you at parade rest? So drill sergeant's on the phone. Like, he can't see you. It's like, oh man, this must be working. Right. Right, because it feels like he can see me. Right, it does feel like he can see me, yeah, yeah. So I was like, oh man, that's that was a realization. Oh man, yeah, I'm starting to this discipline thing starting to kick in.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's it's almost like this change that you don't see coming, and then one day you wake up and it's there.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

That's right. Yeah, I think there was a lack of respect at first, and then watching everything and everybody over time, like, oh man, you know, I really respect them for what they're doing and the discipline they have. They're showing up every day with us and they're doing these marches with us. They're teaching us, they care about us. I mean, a couple of times I did fail at something, you know, uh, I remember Drill Sergeant Hicks, he was a special forces guy. He pulled me aside. He was like, Jesse, I thought, I thought you would love this. I thought this would be your thing right here, this team event, and you know, ask me why I wasn't giving my all and all that other stuff. It's so along with all the discipline, there was these guys, these men, they actually care about you and where you're going, and they instill in you that, you know, you can't play around with this stuff, you know. This is life or death when you go out there. This this thing is real, and you gotta be able to trust the people next to you. And and so if you're gonna play around and not take it serious or follow instructions, it may seem trivial to you, but you're just a small piece of a bigger thing. And so, yeah, I learned to I learned uh uh to take it a little bit more serious.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Yes, I yeah. That makes sense. So you uh graduate basic training and your AIT is right there at Benning, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah, we didn't go anywhere. Nothing much changed. Yeah, I think we had a uh a 30-hour break and you know, and then we started AIT.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Was that like boot camp part two, really?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, that's all it's a continuation. Um yeah, the the AIT is actually it's the same people, same place. Yeah, yeah, you know, nothing changed. Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

My my son was in the infantry. Okay, yes sir. Um so I'm very familiar with with uh Fort Bending. Okay. Great place to visit.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Right, yeah. You don't want to stay in Sand Hill, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

No, that's all I hear that over and over again. I have to go visit Sand Hill because I've never I've the guys talk about it, but I've never been there.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yes, sir, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Yeah. So you're done with the IT then what happens?

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Oh man, I I I go home for about a week or two and then uh I get the second shock of my life. Go to um Fort Fort Campbell is where I was uh stationed at for six years of my life.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Um I want to stop you for a second though. So you I mean, if you think about it, you you hung out with these old dudes at the VFW, you got yourself clean, you learned that there was other things in life. Um you go to basic training, you go to AIT, you get all this discipline, you know, you are a soldier now, you come home. What was that? What was coming home like, and how hard or how easy was that for you?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

So uh coming home was uh I was I was feeling so good at that time. Um you know the the the uh the my closest friends, like I had a group we were called the 4Js, uh Joey, Jez, John, and Jesse, obviously. Um and when I came home, they were just all encouraging, let's get matching tattoos and and man to teach me some of that stuff. And I'm, you know, I got them running through backyard just in the web formation, in the wedge formation up to the store. Oh, this is a file, let's all get in line. And so they were they were all interested and encouraged, and um um so I was coming home and being celebrated. Like you did something great here, and my closest friends are acknowledging, and um, and so that because I have my core friends were actually good people, you know. Jez is insurance just or John owns a painting business, homeboy Joey was a mechanic. And so uh I came home to a celebration, and uh, you know, Jesse's actually doing something with his life, and this is something proud of. Uh we would never, we didn't, you know, we're too scared to do this, and you you went and did it. Man, we appreciate you, Jesse. Thanks for serving. And you know, it it felt good that I was doing something that other people in my group weren't doing. And uh my best friends, uh Jez and Jez and Joey, they're they're uh they're brothers, their their parents were both army veterans, and so, you know, and and they kind of raised me like I was one of their kids. I was, you know, again, we were poor. They always had cereal and ramen, and so I could always go over there and eat, and um, I was frequent for their dinners and all that, so I was one of them. Um and they were very proud. And so uh, yeah, no, it felt good. It was it was a great homecoming. Good. Good.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

And so now you go to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, right? Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah, tell me about that. Okay, so this is another shock to the system, and again, you're at uh 20th replacement at Fort Campbell, and you're there for about two or three weeks, and you you really don't know what to expect. And you know, you first get to your unit, and the my first day at my unit, you know, we're getting sergeant sheer. We had a big old wada uh chew in his mouth, and he's yelling at everybody, and you know, we're throwing all our bags in the back of this truck, and my whole bag of uh of issue gear got stolen by probably one of the guys that's getting ready to get out. Because when guys are coming in, guys are going out after deployments. And so my first day, I had probably it probably cost me around $2,000 to replace all that stuff. And then it wasn't new stuff. I had go all the little used. So that was my first day at my unit. I had all my gear stolen. Um, you know, uh at my unit. So when I first got to the uh 20th replacement, that's when they take you around and you get get all your shots,

Fort Campbell And Barracks Culture

SPEAKER_00 36:18

so to speak, and then you get your all your issues stuff. But um, there's no sense of like all the army's easy. This is all we do, just get up and go eat and do all that. First day at the union, all that goes, all that goes out the window. You know, you're back in this routine like it was basic training, getting up early and learning who's in charge of you and things like that. But uh it it it was uh it was it was a good experience of the barracks and the the freedom of the barracks, and you know, I think we're the most functioning alcoholics in the world. That's what I would call us.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

The inventory is definitely uh group all to their own. Yes, sir. I guess is the best way to say that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So a lot of drinking going on in the barracks.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

A lot of drinking, a lot of drinking, yeah. All sorts of weird stuff. They'd do the the uh the beer crawl where they'd have these shots and they'd have this bag, ziplock bag full of beer, and you go to every door, low crawl on your stomach, and every door you gotta take a shot and drink a beer. Take a shot, drink a beer. You you don't never make it all the way around. You wind up throwing up somewhere along the way. But we do these races, and I don't know what the purpose was, but we did them.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

I feel like if you made it all the way around, you probably would end up in the hospital. Yeah, nobody ever won. Yeah, yes, sir. Right. And so what was uh you know, what was the routine there like and how long were you at Fort Campbell?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Um I was at Fort Campbell my my whole the whole time I was in the army after basic training, all six years. Um so it uh at first I remember um going out, it was a couple weeks in, and we went out and you know, we had some drinks because I would go to the clubs with the guys, um, and I woke up one morning and I'm like, well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna call into work. That is not even possible. And that did not turn out well. Uh, you know, I was sitting there talking to him. He was like, Yeah, okay, no, you need to come. I can't make it. I'm not gonna make it today. So, all right, you need you gotta be here. Like, all right, whatever, dude. Like, I'm not gonna make it. And um, next thing I know, they're right there showing up at the barracks. So I learned that lesson real hard. Like, no matter what, you gotta make it. I guess that was part of the functioning alcoholics. Like, no matter what, drag yourself in there. Um, and and so that was um that that that sort of uh enlightened me more to what this discipline thing was about and um gave me more of a sense of purpose and what I needed to do there. And again, the the training in infantry was uh, you know, being at um we're at uh the first one eight seven, they feel like they're the the lost ranger battalion of the of the infantry, and um, you know, they they trained pretty hard and they understood that we're at a time of war and that, you know, um everybody needs to be on board. They don't want to take no weak-minded people over there, people that aren't disciplined, that aren't trying to master their craft or invest in their craft. You know, some guys were really serious about what we were doing, and that started to instill. But um when I first got there, it was it was that, you know, um things changed over time when you got more comfortable with your leadership and they got to know you. I think in the military, they'll call you a Joe or a cherry. And the reason why they call you a Joe is because I guess in the wars previous, you know, a Joe is the first one to die. And so they don't want to know your name or have any kind of emotional connection to you. So you be a Joe or a Cherry. And so we were all cherries for the six months, first six months to a year, and then eventually we started getting our names. They called me crew. That was that was uh that was what I got called J. Crew. Um but just like the star. Yes, sir, yes, sir, but with a K. Yeah, sir. Exactly. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

Well, that's awesome. Yes, sir. And so uh deployment, anything like that happened while you were uh while you were there?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yeah, no, I did two deployments. My first deployment was uh 15 months in Iraq. Yeah. And um Where at in Iraq? We were in southern Yusufia. At first we went to a power plant, and then we it I think it was all in they call it the Triangle of Death, which is a southern Yusufia just south of Baghdad. Um at first we were in a power plant, then we moved even first further uh south to a um a little uh fob mead. It was like a uh it was just a Hesko basket barrier, and then from that point on we stayed in tents, which is terrible in the desert for about a couple months, and then they brought us in shoes with air conditioning. It kind of built itself up into something nice. Um but at first we stayed at a power plant. It was an old abandoned power plant. It was really dusty, it was like had moon dust everywhere. Um like baby powder. Yeah, like baby powder, exactly. Everything, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do races and all sorts of stuff. Oh, yeah. Um we built

Iraq Deployment And Mission Confusion

SPEAKER_00 41:07

our built our chews out of wood, and um it was it was interesting, so to speak. You know, you get to see them big old spiders and what was your mission there on that first deployment? Um it seems like it seemed like them the mission statements were like find insurgent routes and stuff like that, but really what we were doing is engaging the people, and and you know, we were the uh the lieutenants would be talking to them and seeing what was going on, what's the needs. Um they had the they had this thing going on called the SOL, which is called the uh or SOI, the Sons of Iraq. And it's almost like we paid the people that were putting in the bombs not to blow us up. And so we would go around and we talk to the SOI. And it it it we we all kind of knew, like, well, if we weren't paying these people, these would be the people putting in the bombs. Um and and you know, our rules of engagement were like people carrying a shovel, you know, we could shoot them because they could be digging in a bomb. And so the rules were kind of uh it almost seemed like you know, we I it I didn't really know what we were doing. Like these people seemed poor, and like what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_04 42:14

But yeah, it's so what year was that first deployment, you remember?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

That was uh 2007. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 42:20

Yes, uh, and you're there 15 months now.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

We're there 15 months, yeah. We we we would engage the sheikhs there, and you know, I seen a lot about the culture because we're infantry. We're uh we're doing missions. It's we we were trying to stay busy. We're doing um doing uh what do you call it? Uh doing routes every day, uh um forgetting with the well going on patrols. Patrols. We're doing patrols and uh and we would do missions where we would aerosol in somewhere and and and make our way back, but engaging with the culture uh um with Sheikh Mahdi, and Sheikh Mahdi has a house where him and his son stayed, and he has a house where all his wives stayed, and you know, seeing the culture where women were like property and their sons were them were golden, you know. That's they they they uh they have a different way of looking at it than we do here.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Yeah. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

I remember one time going in the back of this house and we're you know, we're bounding up, and I went back there and there was a water buffalo back there. It scared the mess out of me. This thing was huge. I didn't even wow, I never see anything that big. Yes, sir. So you had to see a lot of stuff in that time that you were there. We did, yeah, yeah. It was all kind of new. It smelled, I remember first getting off the plane in Kuwait and it's smelling like hot garbage. Um off the bus, and uh a grain of sand went in my eye. I had my eyewear on and everything. Grain of sand with my eye. The first three days were horrible because I couldn't sleep. This grain of sand was just embedding more. It took them like two hours rinsing my eye out to get it out. So it was it was at first, it was a terrible experience. Experiencing the weather, getting that grain of sand stuck in my eye, and the smell. The heat, like oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

You know, what was interesting coming back from Iraq was that um you get used to that smell. You do when you come home, it smells so fresh. It does, yes. It's just weird when you step off that plane. That's right. So you uh you did your tour and then you came back uh to Fort Campbell. And then how long were you back before you deployed again?

SPEAKER_00 44:24

It's it seems like it was just over a year. Um we were it seemed by by uh the end of 2009, we were um we were already back on a plane going to Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

Yeah. What was it w what was it like coming coming back from the first one and and how did that change you at all? If it did.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

No, it it definitely did. Um I I I remember so just spending all that time every night alone. Like I was always a guy that had to have a girl, I had to have something going on, um, something going on with my life, but I I didn't really notice how self-sufficient I got living that year, always sleeping alone, and um, you know, this is a lot of weird stuff goes on where you're where you're deployed, you know, we're passing around, sharing videos and different different things of that nature. So you when you come back and that you got that high alert stuff, you're always on guard, you're always worried about what's going on around you. When you come back home, you got it's hard to turn that off. Um and I think that I that you know, again, back in that time, you know, the internet, my space, and all this different stuff is going on. So you had all these relationships over the internet, and now you're starting to meet these people for real. It's like, oh man, it's a shock to the system. You never really know who anybody is till you actually meet them.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

You can be anybody you want online. That's right. Yes, sir. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:48

It could be seven foot tall and good looking, but that's not true. Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

So might not even be a girl. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

Yeah, that's true as well. So you uh you come back and um did you get back did everybody kind of get back to their functional alcoholism in that time between deployments?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah, you know, I I I I wouldn't even lie that um we we we figured out how to get alcohol while we were there too. Yeah. And so um uh uh I guess that never went away. I we were responsible with it, but uh no, definitely we we did um there was some I guess coming back from you from these deployments, there would be uh a lot of suicide going on at first. Uh people coming home and whatever's happening with their wives. It was it seemed like it was either the really single dude or the really married dude that that would have problems like that. Um but but again in our in our unit it would be the first time it seemed like there was there was two or three, but coming back the second time from that was a bigger problem. The murder suicide. We watched the news in Clarksville, Tennessee, and you hear about murder suicides. Like you think hearing about the kids with the gun shooting around here is bad, but man, murder suicide is terrible. You killed your wife and your kids and committed suicide, like that's some news that that uh that's terrible.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think you know, being gone does I I feel like being in a combat zone does that to some people, right? Some people just never come back from it.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

It I think it's it's a mixture between the combat zone and then you know, you're coming back and you're thinking you're serving your country and protecting, and and you know, you're making a lot of money, you're getting this bump up pay, and then when you come back, you you know, people were taking advantage of your money. Yeah people were spending your money, you know. It could be your mom, it could be your wife, it could be a girlfriend, some whoever you were trusting with your stuff, because it's a lot of times guy guys will leave the power of attorney towards somebody, and and uh that that person may take advantage of them because it's a lot of money and it's a temptation and they're not here, and you know, opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

So you guys are home for about a year, and then um you uh head out for Afghanistan in 2009.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

So let's talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

So Afghanistan um the the our leadership had already been to Afghanistan, and so they were they were kind of already familiar with it. Um Afghanistan was a it felt like there was more of a war there. Um Iraq we took over our already established government. Afghanistan, we went there and um it was a free-for-all. It felt like, you know, the guys you're shaking your hands with during the day are the same ones that are shooting rockets at you at night and in the morning. Um it they they really just didn't want people there. I remember going to a village where people weren't even, it was like they didn't even acknowledge that they were even in Afghanistan. Like nobody had been there in so long to their village. Um, and so Afghanistan was a total different. We prepared differently. Um guys were, you know, felt like they might not make it back, you know. There were all sorts of stuff happening before we left as far as alcoholism and parties, because we were getting this sense

Afghanistan Combat Stress And Moral Injury

SPEAKER_00 48:59

from our leadership. Like, look, Iraq was a nice little vacation, you know, you go months and months in complacency, and you might run over an old IED or something like that. Um, but Afghanistan is a total new monster. We're not gonna use the vehicles as as much, we're gonna do a lot more air assault missions and you know, just being out, out, out and about, walking around up and down mountains and all that. So the training before Afghanistan was intense. You know, because of the some of the fear that the the older guys that had been to multiple deployments had been there, they were they were instilling this is no joke. This is not the play around one, this isn't Iraq. You know, you guys made it through that deployment, but this is a whole nother level of crazy.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

So now were a lot of the same guys that you deployed to Iraq with still with you guys when you went to Afghanistan?

SPEAKER_00 49:45

I would say the majority. Uh I think um well a lot of the leadership um from the platoon sergeant, maybe the uh the the the the first sergeant, XO, the the higher up leadership kind of moved around. Um but for the most part, the guys that I came with, came in with, we were starting to become the team leaders and the not squad leaders yet, but we were starting to move up there and and and but the higher the higher ranking people seemed like they were moving to different assignments. Yeah. Yeah, you guys are no longer the cherries, right? No, we're no longer we got a new set of cherries. That was that was different. So now we're now we're we're we're we're teaching and we're leading. And uh so that that was uh a major change, you know, just a couple years in and we're already becoming the leadership. In infantry, you get promoted pretty fast.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

So I I'm curious, did you like I I know that when you first get to a unit, especially in the uh infantry, there's a lot of stuff that goes on. And do you feel like some of that stuff, like you were like, this is crap, was actually something that trained you for leadership later on, or was it just crap that you just didn't even need to go through? Like I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

I I I mean, at the time, yeah, crap. Man, but why do we have to get up at at two in the morning and and and and do a 20-mile road much, you know, do this every couple months, and and we would do a five, five-mile one, ten-mile one. It'd just keep leading up to these 20, 20, 25 mile marches. And but I understood after a while that, well, if you train for the worst, then you'll be trained for anything. Um so you're gonna you're gonna practice a lot harder than you play. And so you would do all this training, and then you would go over there and it'd really just be a relaxing session. Nobody's nobody's trying to stress you out. The stress that's naturally coming is gonna come because your life is in danger. Um but the the training is to prepare you for it, because anything can happen, and we want you to have been through the worst before you come through. So it it it does make sense when it all if they didn't do that, I would think. Like if you're not scared and you're not training hard, then you're kind of dumb. Um so after my first deployment to Iraq, I understood that that's why we were doing this, because you never know. You know, bullets don't have names on them, and you know, you hear that whistle in the sky of a mortar, you don't, you you don't know where it's gonna hit. And so you you want to be training and and and know the the the uh standard operating procedures.

SPEAKER_04 52:07

So the the I remember like these guys would be, they would uh when you're new to a unit, these guys would be like, oh, I was there, you know, and and and they would try to tell you stuff. And I remember in my head, I'm like, okay, tough guy, right? Right. And then you go and do it, and then you come back, and then you're that guy that you made fun of, basically.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Right, right. Yeah, I was never that guy. I remember I remember hearing Sergeant Sergeant uh Sergeant Johnson, he'd talk to a girl on the phone. He was like, Yeah, we're I'm getting ready to go deploy over to to to to Iraq for the weekend. I'll I'll be back in a couple weeks. And it's like, dude, why would you tell the stories like that? So some people exaggerate on what they do. Yeah. And I found that to be true for a lot, a lot of veterans that they'll say things like, what was your MOS? Like, what did you really do? Did you really do all that? And um, yeah, there's a lot of storytelling, I guess, that goes on and with veterans, but yeah, I I don't I've never pumped it up like that. I would just be serious about, you know, hey, you know, the you're going out there as infantry, you're gonna your life is could be on the line because, you know, we watched people get hurt. We watched um people lose their lives and limbs and you know, never be the same, you know. And from from dying over there to coming back and committing suicide when they go on their midterm leave. Um so you you definitely want to be disciplined and squared away and take things serious, you know. Don't don't fall into the stories because we all got them and the grandiose ideas of it all, like, yeah, you know, you you you you want to stay alive, you don't want to um think you know more than what you do. So listening and paying attention was kind of the story I'd give.

SPEAKER_04 53:41

Yeah. Yeah. So you get over to Afghanistan. Um uh walk me through your deployment. What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Oh man, Afghanistan, so Afghanistan, they kind of they kind of uh wean you down to like um you'll start off on a um fob salarno where you know you got everything there, and then then they'll take you to uh uh to a cop meet and then from from from there you go out to uh a a forward hour a fob. So I I'd I'd been on I'd been on a uh a main a main a main uh base and moved to a uh a a cop. No, a fob. Right. A fob is just a forder forward operating base, and now we move to a cop, which is just a smallest little thing that you could get out in the middle of nowhere. I mean, we're we're lighting fires to cook our food. I mean, we're all sleeping on cots. It's just it's a it's a it's terrible. It's a makeshift shelter with bit, you know, where our walls are built out of sandbags. Um and so cop Margot was a scary place to be. Um uh, yeah, yeah. So you you go from the big base to the fob to the cop. Um it's like you didn't even know what happened. No, no, now you're you're just on the worst camping trip ever. You know, you're out there, you have no shower, you have none of that stuff. You would stay out there for I think it was about about two or three weeks, and then you would rotate with somebody else. But uh, yeah, yeah, you're out there in the middle of nowhere. I remember a cop Margal, they had a it had a uh forward um um um opera, it had a uh observation post up top. And again, you all you have is um the the uh Constantine wire surrounding it. You're out there exposed, and in Afghanistan, they would get these things called gist, which they'd be picking up, you know, these messages uh from people talking, and you could hear it. Allah Akbar, you know, we're gonna go tonight, attack tonight. This stuff is crazy. And you know, being on high alert, we'd stay awake for two or three days because we're thinking somebody was gonna attack this mountain, and where Cop Margar was, you could see where the where it had used to be, where it blown up. They drove a V-bid through the gates before. Um, so this place had been attacked multiple times. And you know, we even even while we were there, we had uh we had people go out and and and you know, trucks blow up and people come back not right. Um, yeah, a lot of crazy things happened there. Uh again, you know, uh some of that stuff, you know, we come back, we'd be getting investigated for some of the stuff that would happen. And so, you know, some of a lot of that, a lot of that has brought trauma to me, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

Yeah. What what's like the what looking back, like you think about Afghanistan, what's like the craziest thing that happened while you were there?

SPEAKER_00 56:33

I mean, God Margal is definitely the cra craziest thing. That whole thing was just crazy. Yeah, no, yeah, you didn't you didn't sleep and it it was uh but um I'm I guess it it it yeah watching watching when I when I felt like kids were getting hurt um out of a school, you know, um you know, we're we're test to where I'm on the overwatch position and uh you got a guy shooting a Mark 19 um test firing, and I'm up there and I can see that the rounds are walking into a school as the kids are getting out, and she's fire, she's firing. You know, uh that was the craziest thing. And you know, I remember uh my team leader coming grabbing me. We don't be saying that stuff over the radio, the FAA is listening. I was like, well, he shouldn't have been doing that, you know. Um and so that was probably the craziest thing is is uh is our own guys. And I I I understood um that uh you know the day before we had a uh we had a patrol get attacked, and so that's why this is happening. Um but uh you know that didn't sit right with me, you know, and nightmares and all that stuff came after that. But uh yeah, that that was a craziest thing. Oh, and we did a um, we did the uh they called it a gak. We went from um Fob Bagram, we drove down to Kandahar to the Horn of Panjue. So we drove across the whole country of uh Afghanistan, which was uh which was interesting to say the least, because uh sometimes the roads are good, sometimes they get really narrow. And so it's uh that was a scary endeavor, and we visited all these different fobs and would spend the night. Um we went down there to Kandahar, they call it the Horn of Panjue. Um, because a unit, you know, we had an SOP that you had to walk uh, you know, um three to six meters apart. And I guess they had they had uh about ten soldiers die from one one pressure plate because they were so close together, and so that whole that whole uh unit got relieved. And so we were going down there to replace them. And when we first got there, like this place had been completely taken over by insurgents or or whatever you would call them, and you know, even the locals that lived there were gone. And so we helped uh open this this this place back up and and um I guess bring stability or whatever. The people started coming back when we showed up, um, which was interesting. I didn't know who was attacking us when we got there. The bullets were coming and you would hear RPG. Um we got bomb-sniffing dogs with us. I mean, we had a lot of we had a lot of uh manpower and and and and uh but that was crazy going into the Horn of Panjue down in Kandahar, especially we were used to the north. We were in we were in mountains. We're about in Margal was about uh three miles from the Pakistan border. And so we felt like it was the Pakistanis that were you know shooting these uh rockets at us every day. Because we would get so many rockets. That's when I first had my first encounter with Jesus, because I'm I'm in the Lord, Allah, Buddha. I don't know who you are. I was I've never, I was never a um, I was never a Christian. I understood what Christianity was, um, or at least I thought I did. And I remember that was my first time praying in Afghanistan. Like these rockets are coming in, Lord, Allah, Buddha. I don't know who you are. Um, and and I remember praying because it's I just I don't know what's happening. Maybe we need some religion here.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Um, and so uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

Yeah, what's uh the old saying from World War II? There's no atheists in a foxhole. No. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

You gotta believe something.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:11

So how long were you there? How long were you in Afghanistan then?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Afghanistan was a 12-month tour. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

And then you guys packed it up and came back to Fort Campbell. And uh what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Oh man, that was that was probably the roughest transition. At this time, before I went to Afghanistan, I probably fail should have mentioned this, but I got married. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:34

That little detail we left out.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a wife. Again, because some of that that that young soldier stuff was I was growing out of it, you know. Right. Um it seemed like the married guys were doing the best because they didn't depend on the other soldiers to hang out with. They could go hang out with their family.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:49

Yeah, they had a they had a wife at home, so they had a wife, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

She was not hanging to not doing that drunk stuff every night. Um and so uh coming back to you know, so when I came back from Afghanistan, she had deployed six months after me. And so she was staying six months after me. So I came back this time a little bit more messed up than the last time. And you know, um, I'm now I'm taking care of a young child. Um I had a daughter, Naveya. Um, it's it's uh it's my it was my wife. She my wife was pregnant when we got married. Um

PTSD, Marriage Strain, And Discharge

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

and so it was with not my child. So um, but I I I was there with for Navea and raising her when I first got back. And uh yeah, that was that turned out to be uh uh an adventure because I needed help, in which we had a uh a family care plan, and you know I was getting plenty of help, but in in myself, I I uh I wound up needing to go into a uh uh inpatient. Like I was not sleeping well. They put me on sleeping pills and I couldn't it was hard to wake up on them. Um and so I needed a little help to sleep with some of the stuff because you know again from the the gist and the and the and the um the rockets coming every day, like I was a mess. Like I had a hard time sleeping. I I I had developed insomnia. Um it just felt like that was the safest thing to do. Um yeah, so it was it was a it was a big adjustment coming back.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:18

And how long how long were you in inpatient care?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

Um it was just a 30-day inpatient. Okay. Yes, sir, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:24

So I mean, coming back, wife's gone, got a baby, and you're all messed up. Yes, sir. It's a great combination. It's a great combination. Yeah. So uh you got done with your treatment. Um how what happens next?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Um well I I do good for a while and uh I'm le I'm leading the soldiers. I I I I believe the army was they were really understanding at first. Um but when I I I had uh I wound up failing a drug test um for marijuana. Again, because um in my mind I I have all these excuses to why I would do stuff, but I'm looking back like yeah, that was just an excuse. But uh taking the taking the uh the sleeping pill, it was hard to wake up. But smoking a little marijuana seemed to help um help me fall asleep. And so uh you know, I and I had done this before I had done this before where I'd smoked marijuana and I would do these detox and rinse out and and and and I got away with it. Um but this time I didn't, and and and slowly my leadership started turning on me and you know uh uh things were getting a little worse. My wife is back now, and um there was a uh a period where I was cheating on her. So now I'm um my wife worked for the uh she worked for the general General Campbell of the whole uh of the whole division there. And so uh that it did it didn't turn out well when I got in trouble, you know, and they were hearing that I was cheating on my wife and things like that. And so um now I felt like the whole army was against me, and a lot of it was probably paranoia if I would have just kept doing the right thing, but at some point I decided I don't even want to be here anymore. Yeah. And so I I I stopped being um cooperative.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:13

Aaron Ross Powell And I think I think for people listening, right, if you had weren't in the military, there's actually rules against cheating on your spouse. Like that's Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

The military, the military.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:22

The UCMJ has something to say about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Yeah, they don't play with it, and um and so on top of on top of everything else going on with the failed drug test. Right, right. Um at first they were talking about medically discharging me because the the PTSD, it it, you know, I was getting diagnosed with adjustment disorders um and things like that. Um but they wound up just you know stripping me down and kicking me out.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

Right. It's easier.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

Yeah, it was easier. And and it felt like that it was in line because as I was going through that, there was other soldiers, you know, they did a uh a soldier drawdown of like eighty, eighty thousand soldiers. Um, because they did a a surge at first when we were going to Afghanistan, 120,000 soldiers. Now they need to do a drawdown of 80,000 soldiers. This is the news we're hearing, and as I'm going through this process, there's a bunch of people getting out. And a lot of them were getting kicked out for different things. And so um, it felt like it was just uh part of the process. I was ready to go, so I wasn't fighting. Um, but but you know, getting stripped down and doing all the other stuff. Like, hey, they didn't add insult to injury, getting divorced, getting kicked out, you know, not sleeping right, you know, having this high alert from Afghanistan because coming back from Afghanistan, this all happened pretty fast. Yeah. Um and and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:37

So did they get uh did you get the big chicken dinner, the bad conduct discharge, or did you go?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um that's exactly what it was.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:45

We called it the big chicken dinner when I was in, but I'm an old dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Okay, yes, uh, yeah, you know, I got the big chicken dinner.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

Yeah. Yeah. So uh you know uh so people listening to this may be, well, uh that he got what he deserved, right? But but uh From my perspective and and I want you to talk about this a little bit, right? We send people off to war and um maybe not just once, but maybe a couple of times and they come back damaged and they do things, they make bad decisions. You made bad decisions. I mean you you own 'em, they're your decisions, you made them and they were bad. But some of those bad decisions were a result of your PTSD and some other issues that you were struggling with. And so instead of getting you the help you needed, they kicked you out. And the way they kicked you out didn't allow you to use VA benefits to take care of yourself from the stuff that happened while you were in the military.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:39

Is that kind of where you were at?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

Yes, no doubt. I I felt like the so at first when it was happening, there was like there was an understanding between the the um the the healthcare system and my and my um and my leadership.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

At some point it just flipped where they just stopped caring and they were like against me. And I remember hearing one thing from the first sergeant, oh, you know, we don't want nobody draining the our benefits out of our army and all this other stuff. So there was a there there was a a slight sense of uh of the good old boy system or racism in in what I was doing. You know, you you it was there was a sense of it the whole time, but at this point it was almost like my my whole leadership is turning against me. Uh yeah, yeah. And and nobody was trying to help. I was on my own, you know, again with the divorce being kicked out. You're the people that were your friends and your leaders and your coworkers are all like against you, like, man, don't mess with that dude.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

Um you're you at this point you're radioactive, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

No one wants to be associated with you because they don't want the same thing to happen to them. No, I I yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:43

Find out who your real friends are.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

That's right, yeah. No, though they the whole thing turned on me. Um at first there was there was kind of an understanding of it, and then you know, then there wasn't. So you end up you're out, you're not married, w where do you go? So I at first I stayed, I stayed in Kentucky because uh I I had this sense like I didn't want to go back back home with my tail between my legs. And so I just I stayed in Kentucky uh and started working there. Um I but I had this uh encounter with uh a 50-year-old guy while I was there, Elder Watkins, and um he was a combat veteran, and you know, he told me about Jesus, and I was, you know, like okay, you know. I remember I remember praying and asking, and this is what's coming to me. You know, Jesus loves you and all this other stuff. Read the four gospels four times over, and that's what that's what really helped me. And now I'm in Kentucky and I'm having experience with, you know, what I feel are are are real believers, and I'm having this experience with God, you know, coming out and the clouds opening up, and well done, my good and faithful servant. Reading the four gospels four times over really gave me a sense of, oh man, I know who Jesus is. He's a loving and caring person. This is who I need to be. Um, this is what I need to follow. God loves

Faith, Service Work, And Never Too Late

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

me, I have purpose because I was going a thousand miles at nothing, whether it was women, drinking, um, drugs, it it didn't matter. Uh, you know, I remember getting um two two speeding tickets in like a half hour. I was like, man, I didn't like I didn't even care. Right. Like, oh, you're not gonna take me to jail, let's keep going. Um, and and that, and and that kind of slowed me down um where I was finding purpose. And, you know, uh I I dropped everything and became homeless in Kentucky. Well, I call it homeless in Kentucky. Uh sounds like a movie. Right, right. I I purposely moved to uh it's called the Jesus, the uh the Jesus Church of Russellville. They had a um uh there's a shelter, but it was really like rooms for people to stay a transition type of place. And uh, you know, from there I was just serving and um I wound up getting a job at an irrigation place where they built uh pivots for for uh for farm fields. Yeah. That was a new experience, you know, uh some hard work and you made pretty good money. And uh after a while of being there, I was ready to go home. I was like, well, we did this, and you know, I love I love the South, you know, the people in the hospitality, you know. If you don't know anybody, you could probably feel alienated because it's a lot of family and people know each other. Right. Um but once you get in there, and it feels great. You know, I'm working on them farms was awesome going into the pumpkin patches, and you know, I even I did uh I helped them cut tobacco one year. That was an experience I probably would never do again. But that's some hard work cutting the stocks and then you gotta hang them in the in the uh in the rafters in the um smoke houses. Um yeah, it was a it was a lot of great experiences in in Kentucky, yes sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:41

So when did you finally come back to Michigan?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

Um it was it was the end of 2012. Um I think I my mom my mom got she was she was getting I heard that my mom was getting sick. She wasn't doing well. And so I figured that was time to come back, you know. And my brother was blaming me for it. Like, oh she's worried about you, and like and you know, I guess it was happening while I was in the military as well, that uh, you know, my brother would say, you know, she's uh she hears stuff on the news, you know, 12 soldiers died in the helicopter, and she'd be worried or sick it was you. I guess our news does that, you know. It feeds on some negativity, and then and it can you got somebody that could be in that situation, it might draw draw at your strings.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:24

I'm her baby, and so she came home and uh you moved back to Grand Rapids, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

Yeah, I moved back to Grand Rapids, you know. All I got is my faith in Jesus, and you know, I starting off at the bottom of the barrel there. Uh you know, uh and and so I uh at first I I tried uh I remember going to labor ready, which is like the worst place to work. Um in in uh that not working out for me, and um, and so I I I I I went back to try to find Jesus. I'm like, okay, well let me go to this transitional center. It was uh Matthew's House Ministries uh on the west side of Grand Rapids, and you know, I started working there. I did a uh a temporary job where I his notions marketing, you know. We started in the in the winter for Christmas Rush. They they they had about 400 temp jobs, and then they hired in about 20 of us at the end, so I made it through that and I'm getting hired in, and then uh, you know, for uh when I left Kentucky, I tore my Achilles heel. And I walked around on that thing for like a year and a half, just torn, and finally I'm at this transition house, and I'm talking to the doctors, I'm getting the counseling that I've always needed, and uh like oh, okay, I need to get surgery on this, and so I uh I stopped, I took a leave. They they they allowed me to take a leave. I could have gone back there and worked, and I'm getting surgery on uh my Achilles tendon, and you know, this ministry opens up where they're like, hey, you know, instead of just sitting in here all day, you can come up here with this ministry and help help serve there. And so I did that, and doing that, the opportunity wound up where I got to work there full time. You know, I'm working there. I took the place of three other people because of my work ethic. And so I worked in Grand Rapids doing homeless outreach for about six years. Um, and and you know, I became uh a part of a coit community church, the counseling. Um, they had me uh, you know, looking beyond, like, you know, you're doing this homeless outreach. What do you want to do next? What's going on? It had me looking, you know, growth mindset to what's next. And I started at GRCC, started going to college. I wanted to be a social worker, seeing all the problems with society, like, you know, you know, a lot of social workers, you get an hour meeting with them inside a cubicle, they give you all these things to do. Well, I want to be the social worker that comes walk beside you, take you to lunch, show you that I actually care, make sure you're getting to the appointment. So I felt like that's what the world needed. That's what this homelessness, that's what we need to address it. Um, and so I went to GRCC for that. I wound up graduating GRCC with about a 3.8, um, which I never went to high school, so that felt great to me. No, no doubt. Right, right. No doubt. That's something to be proud of. Right. And and my pastor, uh, you know, he he uh told me I needed, I should go to seminary. And so I I graduated with associates from GRCC and I skipped the bachelor level and went straight into uh a master program at Calvin Theological Seminary. Um I did two years of that. Well, I got married again in there too. Okay. This time I uh I married a virgin, my first wife was a good woman. Krista was a great woman, and um, you know, I just wasn't ready to be a husband, didn't understand what it was, and then the wars and all that, like, you know, spending all that time by yourself again, coming back trying to readjust. But uh, this next time I got married, I married a version of my younger self. And uh, you know, from first week we got married, she stopped going to church and you know, I'm watching her kids and taking care of them. Um that marriage only lasted about seven months because it was just always this arguments and all this, and I'm getting ready to go to seminary and you know, learn to be a pastor, and everybody there is going to be a uh uh to pastor a church or or do some sort of uh pastoral work. Um and so I just like there's no way that I could be who I need to be for God and and take she's cheating and doing everything, and I'm watching the kids. Like I'm understanding uh, you know, the uh the Hosea, where is you know, um God compared the cheating wife to to what Israel was doing. Right. And um, that's what Pastor was like, well, give a little grace and all. I just couldn't do it. And so I wound up that that marriage only lasted about seven months. Um and you know, anytime you get divorced, the first divorce was tough, and the second one was even tougher. Um, transitioning out of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:54

Um so you head off to seminary?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:59

Yeah, so I went to seminary, um, um, you know, uh Calvin Theological Seminary, and I did two years of a three-year program. Um, and and I ran in again going through this divorce while I was there, um, it really put a uh a block on my ability to keep going, um, you know, with uh because Greek and Hebrew, man, that was kicking my butt. You know, I just I was never good at any. I guess I'm not good at four languages because it just it just really was intimidating to me. And I was failing through Greek and you know, I feeling like I need some more accounsing at this point, you know, getting divorced. I just I just, you know, from my childhood and how I was raised, my law violations, getting kicked out of the military, being divorced for my second time. I just was feeling inadequate and um, you know, Greek. Greek was probably the main thing. And I don't know, whether the Korean Greek, they could keep that. Uh I don't see how this is gonna bring me closer to Jesus or help anybody else. But uh, I'm sure that it it it does. But uh, you know, again, I it was just challenging for me. Yeah, you know, battling some of my own demons and um, you know, alcoholism um um was really rearing its head up on me uh because it was it was I guess it was it wasn't a coping mechanism. It was something from a something from a child to in the military. Like I always had these coping mechanisms where I was never okay within myself. I was always looking for something. And and uh I guess the being divorced, going through a divorce would bring the worst out of you, you know. You kind of put your life on the line and you wanted to be committed to something and it just wasn't working. If it feels like the the the girl that you want uh um doesn't want you, and and and the girl that that that that you don't want, that's the one that really wants you. And so um I I had I have a mixed bag of that. And so right now I'm just waiting until God does it. If God's not bringing a woman in my life, I'm not moving on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Um, but but doing that, and um, you know, I understand to go to go deeper in my faith. Uh coming out of seminary, it was like, you know, I moved away from Grand Rapids, I bought a house in um in in in Lansing just to leave all of that behind. Like this time it's gotta be serious. I gotta be zero by choice, no drugs, no compromises, no sleeping with random women. Like all of that stuff has to go. And, you know, I wish I would have grew up a long time ago, you know. Right. But uh it's it's it's been it's been interesting, you know, coming out of the military and then, you know, trying to get married again and, you know, working for God in the ministry and helping people and also helping yourself, you know. Um there's a way out of all of this stuff. It's reversing your it's reversing your thoughts and it's you know putting yourself in a position where you can have opportunity. And uh um, but it's not it's not easy. I mean, I wish somebody, I wish somebody could have told me exactly, hey man, this is what's gonna happen, you know. But but it's not. It's you're learning lessons, you're kind of the creator of your own reality. And um, I guess I was I guess when I first started in Christianity, I was like testing God, well, you can do it, why don't you just do it, Lord? You know, why just change me, make me but but God is really giving you the opportunity and the tools to to to do it yourself, so it'll actually stick. If he just does a miracle and fixes everything, what did you learn? Yeah, what's the point? Right, right. You just you just got everything. That's not how it happens for people. Right. You know, you could you could be you could be uh jealous of what people got, but somewhere along the line, somebody worked hard. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:33

So so what are you doing now?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

Um right now, oh um being a homeowner, which is uh it's tough. I wish I would have just rented somewhere, a condo or something, but uh, you know, yeah, being a homeowner is tough. You're worried about everything. Um I'm uh I'm a member at the Tabernacle of David Church, um, where over the last year I'd been um elevated to being a deacon, um, which I'm love doing that. Um I uh I work at the the LMTS, the Larry Mitchell Trice Senior, it's a food center on on Holmes and uh Martin Luther King, where I do that about four four out of five days a week, where I do deliveries for the the food pantry. You know, I because for me it was like, well, how can I help God in his kingdom? And you know, make helping people eat, you know, with food insecurities was definitely I I love that. This is where God would be, this is where Jesus would be, making sure people can eat. Right. You know, uh being young where I grew up from, that was one of the big things is we would get food from the churches and the pantries. And remember, my mom would pay me an allowance with a $5 food stamp. And so um, you know, I can understand how people are struggling with that. If you don't even have the right things to eat, it's hard to go off and have a successful day if you're not starting the days off right and um you don't have no no good food or nutrition to go home to. So um I I I work that. I'm um part of the LAVC. Um trying to be a board member there for the Lansing Area Veterans Coalition. Um the Tabernacle, we also have a Returning Citizens initiative where we're you know we're trying to uh look at it holistically and trying to get a relationship with other guys while they're locked up and then be for them, be there for them when they when they um when they get out. Um yeah, yeah. Trying to do whatever I can.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:24

Yeah. I think people forgot that Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:28

That's right, yes. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:30

Like people will look people might watch this and go, Well, how's this guy serving Christ? I mean, he he was a drunk and he got kicked out of the military and he had all these problems with women and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, who knows better?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, God didn't give up on that. Yes, sir, yes, sir, yeah. Uh he didn't give up on me, and you know, he has me uh at the highest level I've ever been now, you know. I see the I see the the the the the clearing where you could make it through all that stuff and still um manage to live a great life, you know. Find a uh, you know, the tabernacle of David is like finding the family I wish I always had. Like, oh, I should have done this a long time ago, you know. But you don't know what you don't know. And and uh I think God's perfect timing will bring you to where you need to be, when you need to be. You know, I had to go to all that stuff. I I looked at uh going in the military, how God used that because I wasn't somebody that was just gonna get down on my knees and and worship Jesus, you know. You had to put me on my knees, you know, because I didn't worship God, I didn't worship the devil, I probably worship myself. And so uh that that that Afghanistan experience brought me to my knees where look, Lord, I need help. I don't know what I'm doing, and Jesus is the one that loves me, and so uh like yeah, this is this is the way I need to go, and that helped me to love myself, and then in turn help others that may be in that situation wires where you just don't see the the uh you don't see um where the future is going and you know why people were committing suicide because they don't have any hope and anything like that. So um uh definitely God doesn't give up on you, so don't give up on yourself. It's never too late to turn it around and and make a fresh start. And the longer you keep going the the wrong way, there's just the harder it is to fight back, you know. However long it took you to get in it, it's gonna take you that long to get out of it. And so And then some. Yes, and then some, yeah. And then you gotta you gotta uh you know build good relationships, learn to love people and um cultivate relationships. That's how you're gonna get by in this life is building good relationships, becoming trustworthy, consistent, faithful. Um, when faithful with a little and you'll be given a lot more. So, you know, you gotta you gotta start with that and getting some education and uh getting around some good people that are going in the right way, you know. You can make it out. It's very possible. It's never too late. That's that's probably my message to the world is it's it's never too late and you're never too far gone. Um first you just have to own, you have to own your faults and then admit them and and and seek help, you know. Find somebody that you could really trust and ask for help, you know. But you you gotta put in the work, it's not just gonna magically appear.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:12

Yeah, so well, that was gonna be my next question, but I feel like you answered it. Yes. What advice would you give to people? And that sounds like that's the advice you would give. Yes, yeah. We've covered a lot, we've talked about a lot of things. You've shared a lot of your personal stories. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to still cover?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:31

Um, no, I think we I think we we went we went a long way. I kind of came into this open-minded, like, you know, wherever it leads, wherever it goes. I know it said take notes, but I was like, you know, we'll just just let it let it let it go wherever I'm I honored, I made sure I mentioned Jesus' name, so I'm not uh um uh shying away from that. Uh yeah, no, it's it's it's uh definitely uh my road has been one that that was broken. Um felt like I started lowest of the low, and you know, through faith and hard work and determination, loving myself and then able to love others, you know. You know, some of my dreams have come true. Being a homeowner, um, being a part of a great family, um being productive in society. So yeah, no, anything is possible. You just gotta believe, you gotta hold on to hope and and and yeah, find your faith.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:23

Well, Jesse, thanks for spending the the morning with me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:27

Yes, sir. Thank you.